Thanks so much for listening to Will Tuttle and Sally Fallon.
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Kev
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If meat was eaten from past generations, it was a mistake by those past generations.
I believe many vegetarians/vegans are motivated by a decent sensitivity, but it’s not part of our biological legacy. Furthermore, there’s good evidence that farms provide complete systems (animals produce fertilizers for planting systems; the farm supports small game and wildlife), dating back to humankind’s first attempts to leave the hunting/gathering lifestyle and form civilization. Ethical meat eating is both possible and desireable, from biological and environmental standpoints. Everything dies so that something may live, including us – if we allow our materials to go back to the earth without stuffing ourselves full of chemicals.
>Ethical meat eating is both possible and >desireable, from biological and >environmental standpoints.
That makes not sense.
>dating back to humankind’s first >attempts to leave the >hunting/gathering
>lifestyle and form civilization.
as I previously wrote, just because past generations did it was a mistake of those generations.
>I believe many vegetarians/vegans are >motivated by a decent sensitivity, but >it’s not part of our biological legacy.
If this statement can be back with objective, non-propogated, non-industry funded research science this point sounds nice, but it is not.
to eat our brother-sister animals is cannibalism because we have to kill them… and their flesh is similar to ours… that’s why similar nutrients are found… if you use that fuzzy-logic, then human flesh would be best to eat…that kind of logic was used by cannibals, who cut out a human heart or other organ…
wake up people, do not be deceived by the Weston Price Foundation’s fuzzy logic and pseudo-science…
Dr Will is right… listen to your heart not your fearful confused mind…
however, animal flesh has no healing micro-nutrients which are found in plants, fruits, seeds & nuts… these offer protection against all sort of diseases from minor to major…
the ANDI score is calculated using the healing micro-nutrients, not the macro-nutrients… that’s why your confusion…
plants, fruits, nuts, seeds live for a season and when ripe fall to the ground ready to reincarnate… regardless if we eat them or not… that’s why everyone should have a garden… which is possible if we restructured our society away from greed and mindless egoic ambitions… away from brutality, violence and murder…
those who feel animal flesh is necessary for sustenance will not restrain themselves from eating human flesh during hard times… as has happened to some degree in famines and other distressed situations…
but, Jesus and others have showed us that the body-life is not that important… but the spirit is… in previous life Buddha willingly intentionally sacrificed his body to feed a wounded lioness with cubs to save her life… who next life became Buddha’s main disciples…
only those with opened hearts to God’s Love can understand Dr Will’s profound message… he is not alone… last Nov 3 2010, top world scientists gathered to speak and their message was… “human race will become extinct unless we turn away from eating animals”… Einstein gave us similar warnings…
reference with several great videos:
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
murdering animals to eat them is neither ethical nor desirable… and completely unnecessary… lets face our demons… confess our mistakes… and grow in light and love… i have been a healthy Vegan for 40 years…
love & light,
anatol
jesus shown us that if your from a nourished tribe you csan go to a way of new hope.
he fast in the desert. Jesus is a myth a big myth. sometimes we have to bust them and then we are disappointed. A lot vegans be vegan for long time. The defencies clear shown over generation. So maybe you have after 40 personnly a good feeling. If you would do a blood test you will see that you lack in minerals. If your children and their children will test their blood the lack of minerals will stay more clear.
like other experts said. veganism is a experiment which is trying out. You play with your health. fouty year is nothing. THere are a lot people who claim be healthy, and actually they dont behave healthy or look healthy.
real love and light. free love and light.
look at the unhealthy picture of Sally and the young lady next to her and their forced smiles…
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YCdExf_cF3g/Swx2NRb-M_I/AAAAAAAAAmw/6GRGsLRBkhk/s1600/Sally+%26+Molly.jpg
It’s not a good idea to say that “Jesus is a myth”, as it’s an unnecessarily provocative comment. There’s absolutely no reason to bring that up during a food debate. It’s ironic that your name is “light”. There are many people who think that Jesus is the “Light” of this world.
Thank You! I feel so happy reading your post!
Jai Ma !
I am a devotee of Amma the hugging saint http://www.amma.org
No offence Anatol but comments like yours turn me off of vegetarian diet like there is no tomorrow.
When speaking of diets (or anything) I like to listen to people who are reasonable, speak facts and sound balanced. Not all this emotional stuff.
All the best.
your loss !
i have a PhD in physics and can discern real science from pseudo science and must be honest, in my POV
but i understand that your POV may be different… each of us is unique as a separate individual due to different conditioning… karma etc…
but inside… there is only love… pure unconditional love… omnipresent and only one…
which embraces all of us…
this was my experience 39 years ago…as my spiritual heart opened and i had a glimpse of the vastness of God Love and it’s omnipresence…
but… most of us are not awake to it… I too am not yet fully awake to it… but partially… and i must speak of it even though others may not understand and even interpret it adversely…
love & light
Indeed, it is time we humans develop a level further.
anatol, based on your reply, you’re down right scary. You’re in league with the evangelical where you seem in capable of hearing another POV different from your own.
you stated that the following statement by another blogger did not make sense: >Ethical meat eating is both possible and >desireable, from biological and >environmental standpoints.
Have you not heard from the middle path of speakers that there is NO ONE-SIZE fits all when it comes to dietary needs. You need to chill out honey.
There’s no middle ground when it comes to eating animals. Not necessary and as other speakers have said, even blood types do NOT preclude veganism, they just require more planning…
I think Anatol believes passionately in the welfare of animals and that is a much needed thing in today’s world of billions being farm factories. It’s a heavy load for us animal lovers to bear.
Anatol’s is the kind of response you are going to get when you try to talk about diet and quality of life for sentient beings at the same time. They are different topics. I am guilty of the same passion, but I realize now that this was called a health debate not a debate on what is in the best interest of the animals and maybe that is the problem and why it inadvertently ignites so much passion in us. It was meant only as a solution for humans and not in any way meant to be a health debate for the animals sadly and therein lies the fault with the animal rights argument here.
David Wolfe, Dr. Gabriel Cousens, and Dr. Will Tuttle brought very important key issues to consider. Whether anyone else finds them useful or not.
Are you aware that Dr. Cousens has a 99% success rate with anyone who wanted to be vegan with only one exception? I will say this in all honesty that if Dr. Cousens ever said from his research and with his extensive experience, that the vegan diet was not possible I would accept his opinion but for now, I see no reason why anyone should be allowed to kill or enslave an animal that has the qualities of relating to humans with love and compassion. I believe this must be honored and protected and it is in our planet’s best interest to find that compassion within each and every one of us, as compassion and true empathy are just as important components of my as diet is as is my exercise is to my diet as an athlete.
Hope that makes sense.
Evangelical?! Umm no, this person is weirdly spiritual.
LOL. Maybe we wouldn’t be here having these discussions if it wasn’t for meat.
when you take a huge boat to cross a river, arriving at the other side, you get off leaving the boat aside… and go on…
image the absurdity and burden of dragging the huge boat with you…
leave the past behind… and live in the present
“The Power of Now” Eckhart Tolle
wow wow wow. do not get Tolle involved in this and make him look like a vegetarian. iv read a lot of his stuff and he doesn’t take a side
If it’s applicable, I say use it. Hell, I quoted Star Trek!
This GREAT HEALTH DEBATE is truly awesome. THANK YOU KEVIN FOR BRINGING THIS TO US!!!!!
i really like this Will Tuttle, he is a person that embodies a whole view of how we need to be in connection with our world.
Roni, I agree 100% this guy is amazing
That’s probably Tuttle’s strength. As a meat eater, I have to confess that there’s no defense of CAFO/Factory Farming. It’s cruel and unnatural, vegan voices have shocked those of us who are meat eaters into examining where our food comes from and the responsibility we have toward the quality of the lives of other beings. While I disagree with his conclusions (no meat), I find aspects of his “connectedness” important to the discussion of responsible consumption.
Will is so interesting. I was born a natural vegetarian, but spent my early years on a cattle farm. As a sensitive child, it was traumatic to understand what happened to the cattle. I went fishing once as a preschooler. I excitedly caught a fish and reeled it in, only to watch it flop around and die. I was horrified. I find veganism spiritually comfortable.
that’s beautiful… spiritually comfortable.
This fellow constantly diminishes nature while claiming he’s in-touch with reality. How can ‘reality’ be so full of animosity toward nature.
Carnivores are equally aware of reality and themselves and still are simply meat eaters who accept their nature. Tuttle would have serious trouble being decent to a cat and yet cat’s are intelligent beings but their bodies cannot thrive without eating other beings.
Someone like Tuttle who is so filled with his own taboo against nature — a wonderfilled system that interweaves all sorts of beings into a reality that functions as best anyone has ever been able to imagine — is simply not able to give us a sensible diet. Facts? No, no. just his fantasy.
I had similar thought, sure you can site on a stone and observe nature and think of your self as better cos you don’t participate in the most fundamental principal of nature, the constant killing it develops out of. When I connect most deeply I’m part of it by hunting, fishing, gathering shrooms and berries. Not just looking at it. Having a grunt against killing would disconnect you from nature.
Oups, wrong planet, better luck next time
Yes, we are on this planet for a reason. I don’t think that I’m “Better because I feel the same way as Will.” We are all in this together. Some do have a HIGHER consciousness than others. I think that means more awareness. You can see it everywhere. Think about it. Do you think there is a better way to kill and eat meat than the slaughter houses? Well then you have some more awareness than the ones who don’t care. We are never stagnant. We always move forward. Just because we live on a planet where one is food for another does not mean it is the nature of the soul to live this way. So people eat people! What do you think of that? You get what you want. What you desire as a human. If you want to eat meat then you can. It is the law of attraction. If you see the animals as sentient beings and you desire to protect them then you will find yourself in a situation that will provide for this. We have a choice.
If someone came to your house and burned it to the ground would that be an inconvenience to you? Would you feel sad or hurt? Would you want that person to pay for what they did? What if someone damaged the house your soul lives in?
The same is for animals. If you take their house you cause some inconvenience. You may have to pay for that some how. If you are aware of that, then you can go ahead knowing what it is your doing is better than not knowing.
A cat probably does less harm than a meat-eating human…
When has any other species enslaved another species its whole life simply so they can glut their appetites? It doesn’t happen! Therefore it is unnatural!
You are saying that Tuttle would have a hard time being decent to a cat because it’s killing but I can say this, I still have love for the teens I helped that have committed atrocious crimes towards people. I don’t think it changes Dr. Tuttle’s heart or makes him mean towards cats anymore than it does meat eaters. We just have an overly excessive culture that allows for overly simplistic talks about diet that include the suffering of animals as if it were a matter of what is best for us and not what is also best for the animals. You cannot have one without the other and not expect people to be upset in the face of animal cruelty and making us out to be extremists is quite irritating when we know many of you would go to the same great lengths for your dogs and cats unscathed by others.
i really appreciate what Dr. Tuttle has to say about spirituality.. but um, it’s 20 minutes into the interview and he hasn’t mentioned ANYTHING about health and nutrition! so far he’s just talking about his childhood.. but i’d really love to hear him talk more about the benefits of veganism. hoping to get something useful out of this interview!
I know what you mean but since I’ve never heard of him it was a good intro though long.
Yes he did, he gave examples of how he is just as healthy at his age now and athletic as he was in his 20s he feels great and that we are too self centered on our own health without considering the needs of those we steal from.
“No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another!” – Jean Luc-Picard.
Yeah? It happens every day: abortion.
What should be done with the 75 million animals? Will animals overrun the world? I know they destroy my garden. Should they all be set free to die? Just wondering.
The reason why there are so many animals is because people have made them into baby making machines unnaturally. It would balance if this absurd way would be stopped.
balance out through starvation?
not the most pleasant way to go.
or by prey being eaten by predators?
also not that pleasant.
of course if the whole world went vegan tomorrow the predators would have a population boom from the food surplus of prey humans are no longer eating. inevitably follow by mass starvation of the predators once the animals got naturally “balanced out”.
starvation also being a natural balancing process.
Being confined for one’s life and slaughtered needlessly is an even more horrible way to go!
Yeah, but again consider that pasture-raised animals by definition aren’t confined.
There are options other than factories.
This sort of argument is ridiculous really. Either rewild them where applicable in former farm land, or put them in sanctuaries to live out their natural lives before people like you came along and ended them prematurely…
Sally Fallon is a wealth of information. I like that.
misinformation using fuzzy logic and pseudo-science all bought and paid for by special interests cattle & dairy using org WAPF as a front…
remember when Oprah said something factual about meat not being good for health? well, she was sued by the cattle people…
current real honest science says very clearly that meat is not good for you and is at least one major factor( beside all the processed food ) leading to 50% heart disease 30% cancer etc…
well Sally as spokesperson for WAPF very clearly attacks vegetarianism, veganism, soy, etc with false and ridiculous statements…
wonder why no-one is suing her…
it’s amazing that so many people believe her..
and for Kevin to give WAPF( several speakers ) such a free platform… makes me wonder where Kevin is at… and were any of them even MDs ? Sally is not a MD and even claims that she has no science expertise… then what is her claim to facts and the pseudo-science that she espouses ?
seems to me just misguided opinion based on nonsensical philosophy… certainly not fact or science…
WAPF misrepresent even the teaching of Weston A. Price himself… search John Robbins article on this… was psoted i think…
love & light to all… those who praise me and those who blame me…
I’m sorry, but you are extremely mislead on sally fallon and the WAPF, as a follower of 6 years, and as someone who’s listened to all of these debates. Extremely mislead in your conclusions.
Actually, I think Anatol has it spot on. Sally Fallon was insulting and inaccurate.
seems to be a common rebuttal.
no facts just emotions
You mean like Sally’s talk fil?
Actually calling her insulting and inaccurate are extremely factual.
Fact 1: She insulted people
Fact 2: She made inaccurate statements
Chris, I think you are mistaking your own emotional response to Sally’s presentation, FOR Sally’s presentation.
She made lots of strong arguments, that would no doubt incite emotion from those who disagree. Which is what I think happened in your case.
She calmly presented argument upon argument, citing all kinds of studies and examples. There was no emotion involved.
Did you hear when she said she’s had vegetarians screaming in her face?
She states her position, and it’s others who freak out.
What a wild, unfounded accusation. You claim to give love and light to all, but you are spreading rumors and darkness. You have just reduced the entire conversation to a new low.
I love Will Tuttle, but I don’t agree with his conclusions. These monocultures to feed livestock are not a diet issue, they are a monetary one. Plant farming has also been corrupted. The planet is being destroyed because of greed and control by some and ignorance and apathy by others. All people could join forces and stop the factory farming forces. This would be easier than converting all to a vegan diet.
I love my chickens. They roam free on my acreage and eat bugs all day and announce to the world that they have laid me an egg! I have a guardian dog watch them 24/7 for their safety. They run to me and are happy and healthy. I care deeply for them and share my eggs with the unemployed and homeless. Is this so wrong?
I don’t think this is wrong, I think it’s a lovely way to coexist with animals.
You are such a rare individual. The vast majority of people who eat eggs or other animal products don’t even have close to connection to their food as you do. Good for you. But when people are talking about not eating animal products they are usually talking about people who exploit animals in factory farms and similar situations, not people like you.
Yes, happy pastured chickens can really help the home gardener by fertilizing and turning over the soil. And then they lay eggs, which contain choline and B12 and cholesterol.
Nobody wants factory farming except those that make money from it.
Everyone DEMANDS factory farms because they want inexpensive animal products!
i don’t think that’s what is meant by eating animal product.
eating animal products means EATING ANIMAL PRODUCTS, all kinds
following your logic we could say the
“he doesn’t eat eggs because he produces his own eggs for personal consumption”
Don’t you have a rooster to protect them? How come you don’t let them live out their natural tendencies (i.e. procreate) instead of eating their eggs?
Admittedly what you’re doing (provided you don’t kill the animals) is probably one of the least harmful forms of animal exploitation.
Because eggs are very nutrient dense, particularly the yolks.
What you see here is a beautiful dependent relationship. Farmer and animal, helping each other. This is to be celebrated.
Will talked about plant based fertilizer. my questions is whats going to fertilize the plants that are suppose to make plant based fertilizer?
Organic compost is all that is needed.
and what is organic compost and where does it come from?
if from plants, then again what is going to fertilize the plants that make plant-based organic compost?
He gave you the answer. Plant rotation…Have you not heard of nitrogen fixing plants??
what about potassium and sodium?
there are 3 critical components to fertilizer not just nitrogen
sorry, not sodium, phosphorus
Will’s comments on veganic gardening – very misleading and I doubt he has tried it himself. Building soil with cover crops can seriously take years without animal manures, and “organic compost” that you buy is based in one way or another from animals. Trying sooo hard to separate ourselves from the true cycles of nature take ALLOT of work.
We are animals, we need to team up with other animals to create abundance. Dr Will is in my opinion, very disconnected from the true spirit of nature – its all very idealistic and disney-themed. His heart is in the right place, and Im happy that his diet is working for him, but I see a strong disconnect. As someone who has been into permaculture for awhile now, his views on how we dont need animals to grow food is lacking experience at best, but also childish and naive as well.
Animals can be raised very well…why not support those who do instead of clumping everyone together in the factory farm model? It makes me sad to see so many limited viewpoints.
What living things does Tuttle include in his definition of animals? He says that ALL living things(beings) are interconnected and we need “radical inclusion”. However he focuses only on “animals” which he means fish, birds and mammals.
He claims spirituality can only be achieved by what you eat and it means eating plants. There are many people that are spiritual and eat animal substances and are not just infantilized programmed robots lacking “Ahimsa” and devoid of an aesthetic sense.
But also, is not death a part of life? I hear so much about the violence of consuming animals… but is not death a part of nature itself? The food chain itself is violent, in the sense that one animal ends the life of another. This is not evil, but a natural process.
Why do people have a problem with humans eating animals, if it’s done in a respectful, humane way, honoring the sacrifice of the animal? I don’t get why this is a big deal.
I agree that death is a part of nature and that the food chain itself is violent. Perhaps some people would suggest that humans have the ability to feel compassion and therefore choose not to take part in the killing of an animal for food. Whether or not this is the correct choice for optimum health, I do not know, but I generally feel aligned with a compassionate ethic when I make my food choices.
I’m not sure what you mean, about some people suggesting humans feeling compassion. Are you saying that there are people who think that humans don’t feel compassion? Also, what do you mean by a compassionate ethic? Does that mean not killing an animal…?
There is nothing natural or humane about the way that animals are treated at most of the major slaughter houses.
I agree… I hate them. They’re ridiculous. Terrible and unnatural. There are other farms, though, who treat the animals wonderfully. Small farms and such. Also some people raise their own.
You are right. It is part of the nature of living on this planet. I have just decided that I don’t want to kill for my physical wellness. I desire to feed my spirit and hopefully will find myself on a planet where there is no killing. We do have freedom of choice. This is the law of nature. Some choose to eat animals and some do not. There are places and cultures that choose not to.
You don’t want to kill for your physical wellness. That’s really sad that you don’t value your physical wellness.
I think the point is that you don’t HAVE to kill for your own physical wellness so when faced with the choice, it’s an OK choice not to. I agree with this. Since it isn’t required to kill for physical wellness, why do it?
Let’s say for the sake of it, that you do need animal products to be healthy and vibrant… there are many animal products you can eat without participating in the killing of animals.
Also, I’d like to to know how many meat eaters are willing to go out there, kill the animal themselves, clean it, cut it apart, and prepare it in order to eat it. I have a feeling many people would do without or at least eat a LOT less animal products.
I believe that whoever isn’t willing to kill the animal they’re going to eat, shouldn’t eat meat.
It’s true that the mainstream culture would be grossed out to butcher an animal. Some people are grossed out just by looking at raw meat, and yet they still eat it. But you can’t really count these people, because they’re not conscious of what they’re doing. They just do what they’ve been raised to do. They’re like robots.
Conscious meat eaters are different. They understand the sacrifice of the animal. They understand the dependent nature of the animal and farmer, that the farmer feeds, provides for, protects, and loves the animal; and after a beautiful life, the animal sacrifices its life for the well-being of the farmer–the one who treated it so well.
This is the way it was always done. It’s a cyclical relationship. And not until recently do you see the atrocity of the factory farm…
Speaking as a conscious omnivore, part of a large online community of conscious omnivores, we would indeed be willing to quickly and compassionately end the life of an animal. No problems whatsoever.
I personally feel a deep connection with my ancestors through my diet… from grünkohl (kale) to sauerbraten (pickled beef), to sauerkraut.
I think it’s because MOST people do NOT eat meat (or anything really) in a respectful way. The way most animals are raised and slaughtered is horrific. Then we eat that meat and expect to be healthy? Likely not going to happen.
I look at my First Nations ancestry and can tell you the way we look a mother earth and the cycle of life today is completely out of balance compared to what it was traditionally…
I really believe this quote to be true:
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” WE might do ok with cats and dogs but for the ones people eat, life is inhumane, unnatural and cruel.
Ok, what is the solution then?
Do we throw up our hands and not eat meat because of factory farms? Or do we revolutionize factory farms into sustainable (yes I said it!=) ecosystems where animals are raised like they should be, in a symbiotic relationship with the rest of nature? (check out Chaffin Family Orchards online–very high Brix ratings; and also Polyface farms online; the FDA hates these places!)
This happens when we educate the ignorant consumer–there will be a natural shift in the market, just like what has happened in the organic movement. Now even WALMART has “organics” for crying out loud.
It’s already happening slowly in fact: more and more people are turning to grass-fed, pasture-raised meats, eggs, milk, and cheese. Vegans should celebrate this shift. It’s AWESOME!
Will Tuttle rocks…shame I missed him when he was down this way. Great Health Debate!!!
How old are William and Madelaine Tuttle?
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Tuttle
It states he was born in 1952.
Thanks Thomas. It actually state 1953. Do you know when Madelaine was born?
Did he just compare this issue to being raped? Are you kidding? I can’t believe my ears. That is irresponsible at least.
I’ve heard this comparison a few times from others too.
It’s quite a valid note seeing as most animals are FORCIBLY INSEMINATED!
Will Tuttle…I can live with out his viewpoints.
Obviously. That’s why you are old and have diseases. You’ll say “No i am healthy!” Then are you happy? Do you feel intense joy being alive and in your body?
Unfortunately the animals can’t live with yours…
Actually pasture-raised animals do live beautiful, healthy lives.
You’re also assuming this man Grendahl is an omnivore. He only said he doesn’t like Will Tuttle.
Ms. Fallon said that meat was 10-100 times more nutrient dense than vegetables. Can you/she provide a data source on that? I’m curious, as it’s a different assessment than the ANDI score (aggregate nutrient Density Index, used by Whole Foods). So, I’m sure it’s based on a different approach to measuring nutrient density. What is that approach?
I would also be interested in a source.
David Wold and Daniel Vitalis also pointed that out. This should be easily to find. David Wolfe tclaimed meat as superfood because its so nutrient dense. For David Wolfe to nutrient rich.
meat has no micro-nutrients…
plants have hundreds of micro-nutrients… which prevent & reverse diseases…
there is nothing in meat that can prevent & reverse diseases…
of course, some are born with extremely athletic, strong constitutions and vital energy… these can abuse the body and stimulate it in many ways and still appear dynamic for some time… but watch when these people get older… look at Sally’s pic… does she look healthy ?
ya actually… she looks amazing for a woman of 62.
Saying it should be easy to find isn’t a reputable source…Sorry…
Have a look on the Weston A Price website it should have the info you are looking for.
Thanks!
Marisa, Here is a news alert by Weston A Price foundation re the Whole Foods ANDI score:
http://www.westonaprice.org/action-alerts/2010-alerts/1830-whole-foods-promotes-militant-vegetarian-agenda.html
HA – that is just silly. I love the use of the term ‘militant’ to try to invoke an emotional response.
Last I checked, Whole Foods was selling meat, fish, dairy and eggs as well as vegetables… and loads of processed foods. So never fear, WAPF. Whole Foods’ only real agenda is making bank.
And contrary to your claims, Weston A Price is founded by the farming industry. Listen to Dr. Colin T. Campbell’s talk.
Re ANDI score:
“However, there is one point I want to make about these scores: certain foods that are high in fat, complex carbohydrates or proteins are rated lower on the ANDI scale, such as olive oil, eggs or brown rice. Olive oil has a score of 9, eggs a score of 27, and brown rice a score of 41 If a shopper focuses only on foods higher on the scale, such as kale at 1000 or lentils at 104, they may not obtain the proper amount of macronutrients (fats, carbs, proteins) in their diet. This can interfere with metabolism, weight loss efforts, energy levels, and overall health. So while I do think the ANDI score system can be helpful, it is still important to be educated on what it means to have a well-balanced diet.”
http://piercewholenutrition.blogspot.com/2010/03/andi-score.html
what it means is this:
Kale with the highest score should be eaten in much larger quantities… than walnuts, which are good for you containing omega3, but should be limited to maybe only six per day
easy ! No?
i used to know a naturopatic doctor who snacked on nuts all day long, way too much… this was maybe 30 years ago before ANDI… he died of a heart attack in his 50′s… the healthy fats are good for you but not too much… is the lesson…
Was he also vegan?
Your conclusion is that he died because he ate too many nuts? that’s silly. *sigh* You don’t even know what else he ate. You don’t have enough evidence for that conclusion.
I would like to see the data on that too.
As a big former meat eater, I have never been healthy, until going to a plant based diet.
Fallon is the voice of meat propaganda, where do they get their funding from? Look into that and you will have your answer.
Yes we have meat propaganda which Fallon is not part of and we have vegan propaganda.
Vegan propaganda? Who is funding vegan propaganda? Do you see McDonald’s selling vegan food? What about KFC? Does veganism get millions of funding for institutions or vegan based centres to advocate veganism?
No.
Fallon IS part of meat propaganda, meaning she gets FUNDING from these industries to speak on the ‘benefits’ of meat eating. Please do your research and throughly INVESTIGATE where they get their money from.
Where is your evidence that there is no vegan propaganda? Have your heard of PCRM?
The evidence is simple. Big industry is not funding veganism. Show me a major, publicly traded company endorsing veganism.
That is so not true, WAP inform against factory farming and pasteurised milkproducts, they accept donations from small scale farms since those are the only ones benefiting from WAP work. Ok, if you are against natural small scale farming then WAP are indeed “evil meat eaters” fair enough.
Now we are talking big industries turning big money on designer foods…
Shall we talk about the process veg oil and soja industry about their funding instead maaaaaybe
Maybe you could point us to a reputable source about Ms. Fallon getting paid by the factory farming industry.
It would surely be shocking if you could prove that, would it not?
That would surely send away many of her followers.
Therefore it’s a worthy endeavor for you.
So prove it. We’re waiting.
Alternatively, you could stop making wild, unfounded accusations about your opponent.
Ummm, that’s you evidence, a Wikipedia page?!
here is the first part of the answer
“The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation receives no funding from any government agency or food processing corporation.”
the rest you can find here if your really want to
http://www.westonaprice.org/funding-3.html
Ummm, no, please do you research than just skim the surface of seeing that they get money from donations and contributions (contributions from who?)
i did now its your turn to provide some evidence that counters mine.
that’s how a debate works
i mean you have a very strong opinion so you must have see the evidence or have it handy
What evidence? You just went on their website and posted it.
ok here is another one.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weston_A._Price_Foundation
where is your counter evidence?
Urrm.. how does the Weston A Price Foundations *original website* have anything to do with editable wikipedia pages? It seems like you’re just so strongly opinionated that you basically haven’t even read the links. If you knew anything about Weston A Price himself, his book, and the foundation, you would know that he was and they are compassionate people about the origins of true human health/nutrition and they support caring, nurturing organic farming methods around the world. You should probably look at the history of Dr Price before just making random judgements all over the place.
All non-profit 501(c)(3) organizations by law have to publish their revenue sources. It’s public information. If you don’t see any other sources of income on the organization’s website or on their annual report, it doesn’t exist – or they would all be in jail by now.
This idea that the Weston Price Foundation is supported by the meat industry sounds like paranoia to me. But I would ask those making this claim to prove it with evidence rather than asking those who dispute it – to prove that it isn’t true.
Ummm, that’s you evidence, a Wikipedia page?!
look more carefully does it say Wikipedia?
and again where is you counter evidence?
okay so you used a modified Wikipedia page, again you have provided no evidence to show that the Weston Price Foundation solely generates funds from donations and contributions.
ok
Try listening to Dr. Colin T. Campbell’s talk and he has heard first hand reports of the money funnelling from agricultural industries (most probably animal agriculture).
I’ll take PCRM over these non-doctors any day!
You may be interested in this table out of Robb Wolf’s book The Paleo Solution. The table shows the nutrient densities of grain, veg, fruit and animal foods.Its within a blog post re why grains are bad for us so scroll down:
http://www.30daysofpaleo.com/my-blog/2010/10/day-16-why-are-grains-so-bad-for-us.html
Will Tuttle claims that “anyone who is eating meat does so because they are being forced to by their culture.” Wow! I would say it is the other way around. It seems that vegetarians and vegans are far more evangelical about their beliefs, and young people today are all forgoing meat and animal proteins because it is the trendy thing to do. Meanwhile, anorexia, and vitamin and mineral deficient diseases are at an all time high among young people today. The one thing that Tuttle fails to address is science. Everything he says is lovely and romantic, but again, pure fantasy. There is no traditional culture on the planet that is completely vegan. Even Jains eat dairy.
Vegans are not dropping dead from cancer and heart disease…maybe the fact that they have more enhanced health is the passion for life.
Really, Piszio? Funny you should say that to me. Funny that I was a vegetarian for nearly 25 years, macrobiotic for 5 of them, vegan for about 7, and completely raw for about 2. Funny that I had 3 heart attacks and a double bypass surgery. Funny that after my first heart attack I was under the care of Dean Ornish who put me on his special ‘heart disease reversal’ diet – only to have 2 more heart attacks after. Funny that I had low cholesterol, normal blood pressure, and was a marathon runner. Funny I was later diagnosed with being vitamin D and B deficient (even though I supplemented), magnesium and calcium deficient, and was deficient in all the amino acids found in animal protein. Funny that since I have reintroduced animal proteins back into my diet all those deficiencies are gone. Funny how I’m still alive and feeling fine.
You can make generalizations and laugh at others’ expense, but just because you choose to believe in something that sounds pretty, doesn’t make it true. If you want to make a case, go to the science. Find it. Prove it.
this is what i like… a REAL story, thanks for sharing a REALITY to help us question the FANTASY!
Wow, i feel sorry for you…if you think your diet plant based lead you to heart surgery.
OMG you are insane. Of course it was the diet.
That’s it, Piszio? Do you have evidence that her background was *not* a factor in her heart attacks?
Actually I should have said you are delusional not insane. I’m sure you have no problem believing a vegan diet showed health improvements but that it caused a decline in health you can’t get your head around.
Are you conclusively saying a vegan diet will lead you to chronic illness? I have hard time believing a plant based diet lead you to heart surgery.
It was myself cutting out meat that saved me from having to go for any kind of heart surgery.
The insults are telling in the lack of points made trying to show evidence and proof that meat is healthy.
I challenge you to get with Kevin Gianni in some forum to show show how specifically a vegan plant based diet can lead you to three heart surgeries.
I would seriously love to see how it is possible.
Piszio, the conclusive question would be, what kind of meat were you eating before? All meat is not created equal. There is factory farm meat, and then there is pastured-meat.
No one should argue with your experience. It is what it is. It is not right or wrong, it is your truth. At least you found out what did and did not work for you. Good for you for persisting. Vegan lifestyle is not for everyone, and likewise, animal products are not for everyone. Guess it is all about balance and eating clean.
Sorry, that story makes no sense, too many holes.
If you were on a plant based diet and were taking synthetic pharmaceuticals, those drugs can cause harm you.
A plant based diet will not bring you to such ill that you will need three heart surgeries.
As a matter of fact, this is the first time I have heard an experience like this, I urge you to get a book deal and publish it.
Show me specifically how a plant-based diet, ALONE, can lead you to three heart surgeries…
Piszio mate I hope you realise that your extremely obvious one sided opinions are going a little too far and probably offending a fair few people here.. you can’t make such judgements against personal experience, it’s not right.
I am not hardcore one sided either way, no matter what my own diet. As almost every key speaker here has pointed out, even David Wolfe & other hardcore vegans have agreed, diet is so individual to each person’s biochemistry. I know veganism is amazing for many and suits some well, as I also know meat/paleo is what makes others absolutely thrive. There is no “one way”.
You seem to be just speaking out hard against ANYONE who supports any type of meat eating, no matter what they’re saying. If someone shares what worked amazingly well for them you shouldn’t shoot it down. How can you think you know someones body better than themselves?
Telling us you were vegan, macro, raw, etc. doesn’t tell us the whole picture about what you were eating or otherwise they have have lead to these issues, Stephanie. There are many ways to do all of those diets wrong and give your poor health in return.
I tried to give the most complete picture I could in limited space that is appropriate for this forum. There were no drugs or other unhealthy lifestyles attached to this story. I was a product of the vegan, yoga, fitness, meditation world and did everything I believed was right. The point of my story is that you can think you’re doing everything right and there is always gray area. A vegan lifestyle is in no way a guarantee to perfect health just as an omnivorous lifestyle is not necessarily a prescription for chronic diseases as evangelical vegans would like you to believe. Of course there are other factors here that no one talks about – and that is sugar and grain over consumption which have also been associated with chronic diseases – vegan or not.
The China Study is 25 year survey of death rates for 12 kinds of cancer in over 2,400 counties and 880 million people, which studied the relationship between mortality rates and dietary, lifestyle, and environmental factors in 65 mostly rural counties in China. One of the most elaborate scientific studies in history. Proving without a doubt that that people who eat a whole plant food diet that avoids consuming animial proteins and fats from beef, poultry, eggs, fish, and milk will minimize and/or reverse the development of chronic diseases. They also recommend adequate amounts of sunshine to maintain sufficient levels of Vitamin D…
It proved nothing. You need to read Denise Minger who pulled apart the China Study and Campbell’s claims.
Piszio, I believe you’re talking about the SAD eaters who eat processed foods “till the cows come home” haha.
Your theories are not conclusive. Did you take into account conscious omnivores–those who DON’T eat refined, processed foods? Did you even know these people exist? It’s called the Real Food movement. They are responsible for increasing the sales of organic, sustainable, “compassionate” farms. They eat what their ancestors ate: traditional, wholesome, nutrient-dense diets. Did our ancestors drop dead from cancer and heart disease? Come on, now. We know these are results of the SAD diet.
All up and down this page you’ve made deranged attacks on omnivores. Just cut it out already.
Why is that so important that there might not have been a vegan culture? It’s possible now so what’s the problem? Get over it, I’m so tired of that argument,it’s weak and getting old. I choose to live a cruelty free lifestyle. I’m grateful that it is possible in this day and age; whereas it might not always have been so.
The reason for the argument, Chris, is because cultures either succeed or fail due to sustainability. If you compel, for example, children to subsist on only plant materials, you’re probably going to end up with children at significant risk of malnutrition, and that will imperil the community. It just makes sense.
Moreover, the idea that humane care and slaughter of animals is somehow “cruel” makes some rather romantic assumptions about how animals view their own existences, anticipate undesired acts, and how they will approach their inevitable deaths (predation? sickness?) If you go so far as Dr. Tuttle to profess that “ownership is violence,” then you reject all symbiotic relationships between domesticated animals (house cats, dogs) which are often very rewarding for both parties.
and just because its “possible” doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. science and technology have made all sorts of highly questionable and even dangerous things very possible…
And if there is no existing model of a vegan culture to base this lifestyle on, why would you want to experiment, just because you can? And why would anyone ever subject their children to an experiment?
Look, there are lots of woman and families that raise healthy vegan children. It’s been done. Check out the Garden Diet and the documentary Breakthrough to see how it is being done. http://www.thegardendiet.com/ We’re never going to go back to how it was anyway. Even if you eat meat, it’s nothing like it was thousands of years ago. The fact is you cannot only survive on a vegan diet but thrive. What about the vegan althetes like Brendan Brazier, Mac Danzig and Robert Cheeke. They seem to be doing fine.
Perhaps this is due to the indoctrination he mentions?
I met Will three years ago when he spoke at a conference in Boston. He changed my life. I was a meat eating, horse riding, leather wearing unconscious carnivore. I read his book, The World Peace Diet, and looked around my house in horror at the animal products in my home and fridge. Everything Will speaks about it absolutely true and is so much more than just a diet. Compassion starts on your plate and radiates out from there.
Not impressed… this guy seems to be really judgemental…standing on a big Soap box.
Love Will, though sorry he came across sooo righteous. Would liked to have heard about what he uses to supplement & other practical points. I agree with him very much but on these calls imparting info. was what I expected, rather than preaching. I believe we are going into a new consciousness and more & more folks will grow up Vegan and have new DNA which agrees with that. We are evolving as a species. All traditional cultures speak of this. I really like Sally too, and her points work for the average person, in my opinion. However, our ecology seems to be suffering from too many animals, and their wastes. We’ll remain primarily Vegan with some eggs from my friend’s non fertile eggs, & some goat yogurt, from time to time. Thanks so much Kev!!! ox
If you are going to eat some eggs and goat milk you have to drop the word vegan to describe yourself, even primarily vegan.
Oops, goat yoghurt not milk.
i tend to think there is a portion of the human species that is evolving or mutating concurrently with the rest of the population, and this is the group of people that are sometimes referred to as “indigo” or “crystal” children. This evolutionary change manifests as living more present in a constant space of love, and uses that energy to heal those around them, the systems that no no longer serve and the planet. The philosophy espoused by Will Tuttle encompasses the way that this evolution of humans is progressing, more as a people who live in peace, and harmony with each other and the planet. We are not “there” yet, (“there” being enough awakened souls to effect the turnover or hundredth monkey syndrome) but many are in the stages of moving into that direction. I also think this could be a mutation of sorts, or a possible evolutionary change that would be the one that continues to allow human survival on the planet. I think a raw food or vegan or even a diet with limited animal products, such as milk and/or eggs help bring about and support the psychological and spiritual changes. The younger people who are born with these mutations already in place transition easily, naturally desire and/or have little difficulty thriving on the raw or vegan diet.
Anyone that still wants to kill animals to eat meat is living in the old paradigm, or is possibly just not part of this change that is taking place. I think if you are eating meat, you necessarily have to be shutting off a part of yourself in order disavow awareness and to not acknowledge the interconnectedness of all life.
Sally Fallon is only citing part of the research that has been done – anyone can find research out there to validate any concept they wish to “prove”. I am sure there are studies out there examining the health of adults who have been raised as vegetarians, because many adults who stopped eating meat learned how to eat a balanced and healthy vegetarian or vegan diet in order to raise healthy children.
I think she is WAY off saying that women who are vegans should not have children – that is absolutely nuts, as there are so many already out there who are very healthy children and young adults.
I also disagree with her on the mercury issue – eating the foods with heavy metals, you are absorbing them and the body does not have an easy way of discharging them – you would have to eat about ton of cilantro to clean it out.
I think we will have to wait and see which diet and which group of people actually survives when there the major implosion takes place.
Infertility is down and our children are getting weaker because of the additives and low levels of nutrition in processed foods, and the toxins in things like meats. Sally is not looking at some of the obvious issues in order to promote her system and Weston Price.
I do agree with Sally on the soy issue – but for different reasons: first because most of it is contaminated with GMOs, second, because most of it is indigestible.
My final word (at least for now) is that we are all in different stages of growth, development and awareness, with different physical requirements. There is not one system or physical set of needs “better” than another, and it is up to each person to learn enough about their own physical health to implement the systems that will work the best for their individual needs, both physical and spiritual.
Thanks for the most knowledgeable and compassionate response I have read.
Sally Fallon seems to make sense with regard to what a child needs to develop physically. I was a vegetarian during my first pregnancy and had definate problems and so did my child. It was the worst pregnancy and delivery ever. I changed my view with the second child and she was born healthy and is as smart as ever. No problems. That is just my experience.
You were probably a junk food vegetarian, not healthy at all.
You’re out of line, Piszio. You’re making assumptions about JT without any better information because you a priori *assume* that vegetarism *must* result in better health. Tell that to the Inuit and northern civilizations that subsisted heavily on animal products, and continued to do fine until they started consuming “modern” diets of processed grains and refined sugar.
No less an esteemed organization than MSF recognizes the need for animal proteins in infant foods (as a replacement/supplement to breast milk), and the science is increasingly supportive of this position. (http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/news/issue.cfm?id=2396)
Moreover, you were unkind.
JT that is my story too, thank you!
Ok, sorry, you still have not made your point that meat is essential, as a matter of fact your holes in your arguement point towards plant based nutrition.
I wasn’t actually arguing that meat was essential. I was arguing on the authority of the research of MSF and other organizations that “animal products” (milk, animal proteins) are essential. You failed to address the MSF findings.
I am saying the MSF findings are agenda-based propaganda, and not objective findings.
No, they are published studies from field-based evidence. Who do you think funds MSF? Do you know who MSF is?
Who are YOU working for? That’s the question.
Well actually, I have never been a junk food person, but knowing what I do now, I could have supplemented and I didn’t. I didn’t know I should have. I wish I had someone help me back then. When I had constant “morning” sickness (for 9 months), they just told me to eat crackers. That was stupid. I was obviously out of balance and no one stepped up to tell me cuz I obviously didn’t know. But I am grateful for the wonderful family I am now blessed with. We are all very healthy and can’t remember when the last time anyone in my family was sick!
Yes, just because you were vegetarian doesn’t mean it was unhealthy. There are many forms or vegetarians. And lots of people have healthy pregnacy’s who are vegetarians, so it can definetly be done.
Exactly. This is why I get a bit frustrated. Anyone can call themselves “vegetarian” “vegan” raw” macrobiotic” pescatarian” or what have you, but it doesn’t tell you the whole picture about their diet and doesn’t tell you what they’re really eating. There are many ways to do each of these diets wrong and cause poor health and it’s unfortunate that many times people are not aware of what they’re doing wrong and dismiss their stab at the vegan diet or raw diet or what have you as one that “doesn’t work.” If I told you I was vegan for the last 10 years and my health continued to decline during that time period, it would be unwise for you to believe me without getting more information about what I was or wasn’t doing and what other factors besides diet may have contributed. Health is all encompassing and diet is just a peice of the puzzle. If you follow the a vegan diet THE RIGHT WAY and even a raw vegan diet for that matter (again, the right way), assuming other essential variables of health are being met (enough pure water, sleep, exercise, sunshine, emotional health, etc.) your health will continue to improve.
Anyone can call themselves an amnivore and eat processed crap and sugar alongside their animal products. Doesn’t make them a healthy omnivore.
Yes, it swings both ways. I hear vegetarians/vegans say they didn’t get healthy until they stopped eating meat. But that’s not a logical argument, because it says nothing of their total diet before. They could have been chugging down kool-aid with their big macs, then switched to an organic vegitarian diet. Obviously, you would improve from there, because you can’t get much lower than kool-aid and big macs…
There are definitely wrong ways to do any kind of diet.
The meat expertto the turtel would be derrick jennsen or john zerzan or awesome wolfi landstreicher
its good that this is much vegan sided. it would be great to have derrick jenssen as well. he is more anarchist. hope he wouldnt sell for such a event. i just woner the upgrade reduced from 127 to 49 are they crazy. this is like in a developing country a bit. or just money making. how do they think their program is so much work its the church of scientology here. the marketing is not my way. i think they could mor calm figure out how they come to the cost. and i think its overprized. so reducing the cost to 49 is still to expensive.
for this money they should donate a part of their income to native pine reservation. this racist scent of this event is very sad. only one coloured guy from ten. two woman from ten. no donation to pine reservation. upgrade price from 127dollar reduced to 49dollar. this are money suckers. better support native american which are in extreme poorness.
A lot of this expert know each other. What i mean its like a cult. I think there are a lot expert which arent interview and also know good things. Im thankful kevin for your effort on the otherside. ITs very confusing and a lot is left out for a great health debate. I dont like to push this so up.Why is Dr Cambells interview only available with upgrade. Werent there other health expert which should talk. I heard there were another paleo guy had a phonecall with Kevin.
America is a multicultural country. No African healer, no caribian helaer, no haiti healer, no ayurvedic indian healer, no native hwealer, no inuit healer medicine woman, no american western herbalist,
no amish healer, no cletic druid healer,
no vodoo healer, no south american healer, no christian south pacific island healer.
Just see how it is. Its just few guys who claim on health. ITs slightly racist. Only white colour guys. or mostly. David Wolfe selling noni honey from hait people who are in extreme poverty and under repression of the us army so far i know, also south america represented through david wolfes raw choclet, why this white skin people always talk for the native people. Let the native people talk by them self. For me this event and this health scene have a racist discriminating taste.
I would more appreciate Derrick Jensen instead of this Vegan philosopher. I think this misleading and loosing and soothing ourself in spiritual adveture is full of dangerous and lead to more confusion. Maybe we spoil good people by this event, cause they not trust their gut feeling anymore and now confused. Hope we surrive and can honour our frinedly loveful wisedom more than this moneymakers marketing.
I think one think is true, the most thing is at moment still on an experimental level. So better have good sleep and dream about wonderful things.
“ALL traditional cultures valued and ate liver” – WHAT?? Haha, I knew I would disagree with Sally Fallon but I’ve heard her interviewed before and at least thought she was respectable. This is just sort of ridiculous.
dont eat it, more for us lol
i just the interviewer first is very confused and combine the most exotice fact with each other. If you really wanna know dont believe this guy. Travel by yourself.
don’t eat it period.
That would be knowingly passing over one of the most nutrient-dense foods on earth. That’s sick to me.
Glad to hear she was very articulate. She mentioned grass fed meat, still not part of mainstream diet, so until it is she should be fighting the big chain grocery stores, but she is not, why, Weston Price gets funding from the meat industry.
please provide some evidence of this
Please provide evidence that meat is healthy.
what does me providing evidence that meat is healthy have to do with you proving your accusation that the Weston a. price foundation is funded by the meat industry?
I didn’t think you could provide it.
dodging my question isn’t helping you prove your case.
and if your next reply is missing the evidence we can just assume you don’t have any
The problem is you don’t understand how propaganda works from big industry, like the Meat Industry.
I can point you to the affiliations that the Weston Price Foundation has teamed with but that would mean nothing to you.
By virtue of working with other organizations, by default, there is a financial incentive.
This is with any big industry.
They are not relying just on donations, but much of the contributions from many other lobbied groups from the Meat Industry.
Think of it as a club.
Any affiliation they have is a financial gain, at a corporate industry level.
lol ok
Piszio-
1) It’s clear to visitors how hostile you are. You may want to investigate ways to nourish your mind, both with diet and with spirit.
2) WAPF actually advocates AGAINST big ag. Volunteer lobbyists like myself work against big ag’s corporate interests. It’s clear you have no (and there is no) evidence to the contrary. I am active in our WAPF chapter, and I’m telling you, WAPF actually encourages people to eat vegetarian if they cannot get clean, grassfed meat — not everyday, but if stuck at a SAD restaurant or something. You look foolish speaking of things you do not know.
Since when are small scale farms producing grass fed meat and raw milk “industry”?
There is a whole “underground” movement for this. There are tons of little farms providing clean organic meat and raw milk, in the U.S. The FDA is warring against them, because the FDA is obviously fighting for Big Ag interests.
There are options, other than buying farm factory meat.
Piszio I hope you realise that hundreds if not thousands of people reading these comments are seeing that you are pretty much just making stuff up to suit your own opinion.
the giant tortoise get 177 and not selling things to people. Why always trick the people with marketing.
Why is this tuttle. He is making illusions that the world is so simple. Such people you have to cut off hold at their shoulder make contact to them that they get off off their psychotic illusionary state.
For me this is now the point Daniel Vitalis talked about. The labil stote of mind. This tuttle is realy a bit jumping in mind, its one way he goes its very frightening for me his voices. He really could tell something interesting he is talking so abstract. I dont like how kevin take him serious i dont think this is really good for anyone.
i tihnk such interview with this guys have to be more short sentenced and clear questions a bit cosy and funny. This vegan is so stiff and inhibeted. So far away from a lovely guy. He really brings people in danger. So its how its feels for me.
Vegans have Down Syndrome babies? Where is this ‘proof in the literature’?
Wow. Wow wow wow, this is incredibly irresponsible.
also google
infant mortality and veganism
and
infant mortality and meat consumption
then take a look at the results
Also google
Death infants
then look results
Fallon says “she knows people” who worked with the Paramahansa Yogananda group in L.A and they saw one Down syndrome baby after another. This is anecdotal evidence is NOT to be accepted.
Most of the time all we really have is anecdotal evidence – we use it all the time. The Down syndrome baby one after another may well have happened – but could have been another reason – some toxin in the area – not something you can definitely say but you can say the mother’s had similar/same diets.
Does anyone know on teeth remineralisation?
links or names… or miracles stories
How i can in contact with you?
http://www.curetoothdecay.com/
Wow. So opposite. I am so glad to hear Will speak…..An amazing soul……No comment on Sally. Thank you!
I’m SO glad you had Sally Fallon on, thank you Kevin! This has cleared up so much confusion of the past week. Since she is the ‘top of the pyramid’, the source of information that many of your other guests have been ‘citing’ – the cascade of misunderstanding/misinformation.
It’s been very enlightening, thank you for putting this all together!
I feel so much healthier as a vegan. My head is spinning, lol.
Sally’s teachings concern me since I tried her Healthy Traditions lifestyle in Michigan about 4 years ago. When I got my blood tested under Darkfield Microscopy, I had an overwhelming amount of fat in my blood. I was asked if I drink a lot of whole milk. Also, I went to a festival where this lifestyle was recognized as good. The lady teaching my class was very very overweight and several others that followed this were very obese.
She does teach about fermented foods which I feel are good, but there are ways to ferment without the use of raw milk.
Wow Kevin – you couldn’t have got 2 more opposing forces there! Will Tuttle was awesome!!!! So so true….
It was almost embarrassing listening to Sally Fallon after that. I have never been so healthy as I have been after becoming a vegetarian 35 years ago. I had awful problems with the meat and potato based diet I was raised on in Ireland. My son has never eaten meat and he is the strongest healthiest 30 year old I know. I do appreciate that she promotes local, sustainable farms. The prison guys were sick from eating the soy – of course! That had nothing to do with eating a nutrient dense vegan diet!!! All vegans don’t eat soy!
She is so incorrect to say that we cannot live a true healthy life without animal foods. The only time when people get deficient and sick from “veganism”is they are not eating all the nutrient dense foods that they need. There’s no right way to do it?? OMG. She needs to learn a few things about where to get the nutrients in a plant based diet. It’s all available. I hope she has health insurance! She is the kind of person that propagates the massive propaganda that will destroy humans and the planet. Very very sad. As Will Tuttle says “It is not a good idea to be well adjusted to a sick society”.
The planet is still here after thousands of years of meat-consumption. To argue otherwise is being dishonest.
I was very disappointed with Will Tuttle. So judgmental-sounding. Pretty much the only thing I liked from him was his description of hanging out with a squirrel. I’m against cruelty but not all killing is cruel (as was stated by Dr. Williams and you can also Google Temple Grandin’s work and/or buy Kosher meat).
Slaughterhouse workers are not all violent. I used to have a landlady whom I lived with as a teen and she was one of the sweetest people ever. She bred dogs too so she was an animal lover. I do think you can love animals and still eat meat.
I don’t think we should indiscriminately pig out on meat every day. Buy your meat from a local farm and go visit your meat while they’re alive to see how they’re doing. Are they happy? Are your dairy cows happy? How are your chickens? Get connected with your food if you must eat meat. Maybe you will change your mind or eat less of it.
Oh, I do very much agree with him that we should all grow as much of our own food as possible. If every person just planted one fruit or nut tree that’s local to their climate, that act alone could change the world for generations to come. Makes me feel sick when I walk in our town and see only one or two people with gardens and the rest planting useless landscape versions of trees that are no good to anyone. They don’t even look pretty.
I didn’t expect to like Sally as much as I did but she makes a lot of sense. I’ve never met her but people I know who have say she looks very young and healthy for her age (anyone know how old she is?). I don’t think the WP diet is perfect by any means and it needs to be individually tweaked as it can be far too acidic for some people. I think Gabriel Cousens did a fine job in telling us how many toxins are in cows! BUT….and this is something that didn’t get brought up much….was that fermentation breaks down toxins quite well. I also wish Gabriel had mentioned all his work with zeolite as well which in my opinion should be part of everyone’s diet these days. I guess an hour really isn’t much time to squeeze in so much information!
Soy should be banned in my opinion but after hearing Sally, why not just feed the violent rapists soy products during their time in jail? Might solve a lot of problems when they get unleashed on society again. It’s cruel but they ruined someone’s life. To the rest it really isn’t fair. It’s a pity that prisons don’t bother to rehabilitate people and some people are in there for no good reason at all. Studies show that violence decreases in prisons with the use of supplements. These people are nutritionally depleted.
Thanks for bringing all these people to us Kevin and I’m glad you were so civil to Sally, LOL
She BRED dogs? You mean for her own purposes? Sounds like she loves animals. Especially those she kills and exploits…
And Kosher meat is just as cruel as other forms. In fact, probably moreso because they have to let the animal bleed out while alive!
As an omnivore, thank you for your balanced, and particularly kind observations. Your landlady sounds lovely, and it’s true that you can love animals and consume them. It’s the interdependent relationship that has existed since time began. I share your thoughts, that if you are going to eat animal products, they should be as local as possible, and you should check out their living areas to see how they’re doing. I’m also frustrated to see people with nice sized yards not using it to grow their own food. Here in Germany, it’s wonderful to see cherry, apple, walnut, and pear trees being planted all over the place, even in the city. And indeed soy products should come with a warning, like cigarettes! I believe Sally Fallon is 62.
Ramiel Nagel talks on Teeth remineralisation and healing caites. Related to Western Price.
http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/2276/ramiel-nagel-episode/
soy. There is a difference between. GMo soy or hybrid soy and traditional soy. i would think. I can imagine that traditional soy products can be healty. Are there still traditional soy products. I think todoy soythings are quick produces. i only use good quality organic soy soauce and i also like good organic miso.
I am a mostly raw food vegan and I stay away from soy. There is too much controversy involved with it.
“The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View” is a pretty cool read. Enjoy!
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-issues/287-ethics-of-eating-meat.html
Sally was excellent and very informed.
I am now more confused.
only eat raw egg yolk? Why not to eat the whites? What to do well with the whites?
Dont wanna just throw it in the bin!
Eat the whole egg lightly cooked or raw if you can. The problem is when you just eat the whites.
I bake the whites and use the raw yolks as sauce when they’re done.
Gerson can heal cancer by using fresh raw juice and vegetables and fruits. But you never hear someone getting healed from cancer by eating a diet of mostly meat.
I am waiting to see the big study that shows green veggies cause heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.
All these meat advocates say eat meat, BUT
- limit your portion (WHY IF IT IS SO GOOD FOR YOU)
- Eat grass fed meats, (FIVE TIMES MORE EXPENSIVE AND MAKES YOU JUST BY FACTORY RAISED MEAT)
- Vegetarians have all these deficiencies (WHAT KIND OF VEGETARIAN?! LACTO-OVO, EATING POTATO CHIPS, FRIES, EGGS, CHEESE…MOST OF THE SPEAKERS COME FROM A HIGH PLANT BASED DIET, NOT A JUNK FOOD VEGETARIAN)
- Is there a good pic of Sally Fallon…(most meat eaters have physical symptoms you can pick up on)
- Humans are Omnivores (REALLY, LET’S DO A BIOLOGY COURSE)
Too many holes in Fallon’s points and lots of spinning, that these indiscretions indirectly advocate a plant based diet, so thank-you Sally.
Nice!
green vegetables are good for you. no one is disputing that.
well actually some of the people in the food intolerance network would disagree, the whole reason i got interested in this debate is because my son was intolerant to food chemicals (such as salicylates/glutamates/amines) and some green vegetables we eat (especially from supermarkets) are very high in things my son reacted to… a very important point with ALL food is that WE MUST EAT FOOD AS IT IS DESIGNED TO BE EATEN and for me this means avoiding most supermarket foods.
Veggies don’t cause disease. Nutritional deficiencies do. Meat contains long-chain fatty acids not found elsewhere. These are essential for good immune function and keeping inflamation at bay (heart disease, diabetes). A hard-working, very focused vegan may be able to food combine to get a variety of vitamins and essential amino acids. But, as a biochemist and recovering vegan, I see it is impossible to combine foods to get the essential fatty acids found in animal products.
Most of my informed friends wouldn’t touch grocery store meat, choosing instead to buy from a farmer they know and trust. I abhor cheap food and it’s been a long time since I purchased it. Paying $3-4 per pound for quality, grassfed meat doesn’t seem expensive to me.
That’s because it’s subsidized. Remove those subsidies and enjoy paying $50/pound for that same piece of animal flesh!
Those subsidies are only held in place by focal people like those of the Weston Price Foundation who spout off the mantra that we need meat…
Dear Kev, thanks again for sharing. With all that was said tonight, I mostly enjoyed the vegan talk. Though I appreciate all that was shared by the person who spoke that meat is needed for humans, at least not for me, as I know of persons who eat meat and are much younger than I am and they suffer with high blood pressure, and have heart problems, and is taking medications. I have a relative member who is much younger, who is a meat eater, lost most of his teeth from age 29, and he has had a stroke and is on medication. I am 71 and two years ago, my nephew who is a medical doctor, wanted me to see a doctor for a checkup, for he felt becaues I was vegan, there has to be a health problem. It was the very first time in my life that I had a check up for diabetes, cholesterol, heart, and my sister was with me, when the doctor gave me the report that everything was okay, just to continue with my builders. My medical doctor nephew had a cholesterol problem, and another healath issue as well, and he started to follow my way of eating because he even had surgery for his throat, and was not feeling much better. He is now much better in health. My sisters are younger, eating not so much meat often, but they eat chicken, turkey and fish, fried foods, and they are on some kind of medication for diabetes, cholesterol, and heart.
I am 71, and have been eating vegan for over 14 years. Occasionally, I would eat egg white, not the yoke. I have no health problems at all, not even arthritis, and I still have good sound teeth, still, and I also have only partial dentures. I have a lot of energy,and my brothter told me that I am just like a teenager, because he has seen me, walk up hilly areas like much younger people do, and I also have a very good appetite. People do not believe my age. I do not tire easily, and I cook my own meals, I went to Canada for five weeks to spend time with my relatives, and I cooked my own meals, and a few of my brothers, niece and other relatives ate what I cooked and enjoyed it, and said it did not taste any different. I quite agree that there might be some who may not do well with altogether vegan, but the least meat kine eaten besides the absense of processed and refined foods, they will be better off. The cows eat grass, and do not suffer for lack of calcium in their bones. For me, animal protein is not good. I get protein from dried peas and beans, raw almond nuts, and other healthy food items. I use whole grain moderately. I eat raw foods as well.
Sorry to be writing so much, but I believe I have something good to share. My husband died at 68, from a heart condition. He used to eat chicken, turkey, and fish, as was told by the Medical professional, in order to get the protein, but he was sick for five years with the condition before death. I believe we need to listen to our bodies, before we eat any meat.
I understand that if a person eats chicken, turkey, or fish, or any meat kine, he needs to detoxify every three months. A Vegan needs only to detoxify every six months. As far as I know, meat pulls nutrients out of one’s bones. I also know that the missing thing for the vegans is the B 12, but one can get B 12 from other food sources. The herbalist doctor whose book I have read, eats no meat, and he has helped many people who was ill, to get healthy once again. Thank you so much. Keep up the good work.
Healing, detox, cleansing different to normal, everyday diet.
The diet that made the cancer? Im not trying to be rude.
No the diet you eat so you don’t get nutrient deficiencies. Reason for getting cancer could be numerous.
[b]15 Reasons to Eat Meat[/b]
http://soulveggie.blogs.com/my_weblog/2005/09/15_reasons_to_e.html
Twenty-Two Reasons Not to Go Vegetarian
http://www.westonaprice.org/abcs-of-nutrition/1555-not-to-go-vegetarian.html
Are you for or against veg*nism?
Kevin,
Why , oh why, didn’t you challenge her ideas?
Sally Fallon is a shill for the meat and dairy industry. You just let her spout her fallicies and did not challenge her a bit.
So true. Kevin doesn’t ask follow up questions. I’m not sure how much research he does for his research but he should definetly do more research and challenge his guests more.
Then Kevin is a shill for the vegetable industry. Attack ideas not people please.
Kev’s job is not to challenge the speakers but to make sure that their point of view is clearly expressed. He’ll often follow up with questions like “do you have an advice for someone who…” The main point is to get the information out there so that we can make our own informed decisions.
NO! Sally is a ‘shill’ if you have to use that word to describe her, for the small farmers who produce meat and dairy and NOT the industry!
I found myself wanting to quote Shakespeare (I think it’s Othello) often readin gthrough people’s comments here: oh gull, oh dolt, as ignorant as dirt
Thanks Kev and goodnight.
Hi,
First of all I’d like to say thank you to Kevin for organising this Great Health Debate.
I’ve managed to listen to most (unfortunately not all) of the speakers, and I think it was good to include Will Tuttle. The ethical dimension of diet is an important one, and I think it was good to have it gone into in greater depth.
I do think, though, that it would have been good to hear more about his specific diet – and to hear about how he deals with B12, Omega-3 (DHA, EPA), and other such issues (vitamins A, D and K, for example). He seemed to suggest that Dr Fuhrmann and Alan Goldhamer spoke about these issues, but I would have liked to hear a ‘whole’ presentation including both ethical and nutritional aspects.
He says he has been vegan for thirty years, so I am willing to believe that his diet is working well for him, and this only makes me want even more to hear the specifics!
I have myself been vegan for 8 years (and vegetarian for two years prior to that), but have recently been considering eating (carefully chosen) free-range eggs again for a number of reasons.
I live in Aotearoa New Zealand, and I have begun to believe that the vegan diet isn’t the most ethical diet for someone living here, as we don’t have so many vegan sources of protein grown here, and eating a lot of imported food is something I’d like to avoid because of climate change.
Eating eggs would allow me to eat less imported protein, and would be a source of B12. B12 supplements may come from micro-organisms, but they are created through an industrial process that surely can’t be so climate-friendly, either. (I have been taking B12 supplements for the past 6 years.)
Perhaps it comes down to this – I would prefer not to take any supplements at all and this would seem to mean not being vegan, but it seemed as though the animal-eating speakers on this debate suggest that supplements are necessary too!
Maybe I’m hoping for a last-minute reprieve before I actually start eating eggs again – to be shown how I can continue being vegan healthily!
If you are reading this, Kevin, I wonder whether you could touch on the issue of supplementation in your final comments (if I’ve understood rightly that you are going to offer such comments).
And if anyone else has any comments about what I have written here, I would welcome your responses.
Thanks again, and wishing you all a healthy life!
Jonathan
hi Jonathan,
I am a 38 year vegetarian, with part of that time being vegan, part being mostly raw, and part eating eggs, dairy (mostly fermented) and a little bit of fish. at first, I was not balancing well – too many grains, too much soy products, not a good balance of vegis, fruit and fermented products, and almost everything cooked. after about 25 years, my energy level and health started to deteriorate. During this time, i also had somevery stressful jobs, and was beginning the process of menopause, where my hormones were all over the place. At that point, I started with the fish and eggs, and added a little more dairy. It really helped balance things out.
Now, I do very little dairy or fish, and still eat eggs from my own chickens, (who are not only humanely treated, but spoiled rotten)!
I also eat a lot more fresh greens and fruit than I ever did, and use little fats and nuts. I am feeling fine, sometimes tired, so I know the balance isn’t quite right yet, but overall, much better than before.
I have had the best health of anyone in my family (all of whom do the SAD diet) and look about 10 year younger than other people my age. I think it is about being really observant and trying different things, to find out what will work best for your specific physical needs.
peace.
I respect your well-thought out diet. Well done.
To talk about the supplements. I know that Sally and WAP recommend getting all your needs from foods eaten in their whole forms. But if you’re going to take a supplement, they recommend fermented cod liver oil taken with grass-fed butter oil (ghee). This combination is greatly synergistic and provides a good amount of Vit A and D. You can find the website online, simply google ‘fermented cod liver oil’ if interested in learning more. I’m not affiliated with their foundation in any way, but I appreciate their ideas and read some of their articles.
Allison, do a little research and you’ll see that meat and water has been used for centuries for healing.
I lived the Healthy Tradition lifestyle and got very ill. I am not better off being vegan and healed. If I do feel I need animal products in the future for some reason, I will do it…promise. I just feel so much better and I have to tell you….. I look a lot younger too.
I mean, I’m better off being a vegan, lol. Anyhow, I actually have Sally’s book, followed it, met and became friends with people who live this lifestyle. Very nice people, not violent. But I will say again, I got ill. My cholesterol shot up, I had the beginnings to cancer, and asthma. My asthma has cleared up with raw food vegan and cholesterol is good. BUT….if I need to eat animal products in the future, so be it.
Allison, definitely eat the way you feel better. How do you get the beginnings of cancer? How did you test for that? Beginnings of asthma I can understand – persistent cough, mucus, breathing difficulties etc. maybe it was the dairy or wheat that were culprits.
I have had asthma since kindergarten and have been medicated. If I eat raw foods and juice, I have no asthma. If I eat a lot of cooked foods, even vegan, I get wheezy. Its crazy. I am so glad I found something to fix that. I hope it stays that way.
As to the pre-cancer….I was told by my doctor to go get mammograms every 6 months due to a lump they were watching. I was told it may be pre-cancer. They have done ultra-sounds also on it. Anyhow, the lump is gone. After doing raw foods and drinking raw fresh juice daily with tons of greens, its gone. I am so happy.
Allison what do you normally juice that helps with your asthma?
I ask because beetroot juice is high in nitrate which lowers blood pressure. I wonder what in your green juice is helping with the asthma.
I do not know what is helping since I am eating so many fruits and veggies. I have at least two juices daily which consist of Kale, or swiss chard, or other leafy green, celery, green apple, lemon juice, ginger, cucumber, and sometime other veggies. I just think its so healthy getting all the vitamins and minerals without all the cooking. I just know its working, and my skin is softer, I lost 20 pounds and am now down to my ideal weight, I have so much energy, and so many other remarkable things. I just feel great. That to me says it all.
also a high presence of h-pylori is now considered a pre-cancerous risk.
Allison,
you might enjoy this documentary movie coming out in April
http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com
it’s very entertaining, funny, sad, informative and ends up very very inspiring
watch fat head too
http://www.fathead-movie.com/index.php/about/
fathead is a bunch of bullcrap…
you ought to be ashamed of your self fil…
WOW congratulations! That’s amazing. I’m an omnivore but totally respect your diet. What I don’t like, is when vegans accuse me of not being compassionate because of my diet. Their idea of compassion is very… peculiar… to me.
After listening to Sally Fallon you’d think that the majority of Americans are infertile, sexless vegetarians, when in fact only 3% of Americans are Vegetarians. Most Americans are obese, medicated and impotent because of their poor meat-centered diet. As far as infertility is concerned, the world population has doubled in the last 60 years. I found her talk laughable. It was so full of misinformation and distortions you’d think all vegetarians were toothless undernourished victims. I personally healed myself of cancer 14 years ago by changing my diet to a vegetarian one, among other things. Carnivores (read as the typical American) are sickly. Their blood is thick and high in sodium. Their blood cells are misshapen and too acidic. They are dropping like flies from heart disease, cancer and diabetes. Meat production has reeked havoc on our environment, on our bodies, on our health and on our psyche. According to Sally Fallon everything is OK. Wake up lady!
Most Americans are obese because of processed junk food diet not meat. Tell it like it is. Most never cook and just get takeaway. Probably couldn’t name most vegetables.
Whew, thank you John!
Fallon’s attempt to use ill-minded vegetarians as suggestion not to be vegetarian was weak.
If you wanted an argument against vegetarians she could have said Hitler was a vegetarian.
Seriously, people, use some critical thinking in her points and you will see she really did not have one compelling argument to eat meat.
Quite frankly, I was hoping for a more compelling argument by Fallon. As I mentioned on previous posts she is well articulate but fails to really say meat is healthy.
Yeah, it is hard to lump all vegetarians and vegans humans as sexless, because it simply is not true!
simmer down, no one said they are sexless.
that they have reduced libidos, not missing libidos
I have a reduced libido as a vegan? That is news to me. The only real knowledge is gained through DIRECT EXPERIENCE. My experience tells me she is lying. Sounds like more fear mongering for the sake of enslaving fellow brothers and sisters..
low colesterol=low sex hormones sorry
No doubt! I have an INCREASED libido since going raw vegan. It’s crazy. it was high enough before!
right on John,
i have been a healthy vegan for 40 years now; doing much better than my first 31 years as a meat eater…
it amazes me how strong the cultural conditioning is… that some do not apprehend Dr Will’s profound message… coming from the heart and substantiated by honest science of Dr Fuhrman, Dr Goldhamer, Dr Campbell and others…
good to read “The Pleasure Trap” by Goldhamer and check out top scientists discuss that “human species will become extinct unless we turn away from eating animals”
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
love & light,
anatol
Wake up John
go to Weston Price site and find blood test results for those eating Sad diet and Traditional diet – those on Traditional had beautiful blood.You cant argue against blood work – blood is the river of life!
Increase in cholesterol okay if also HDL goes up and triglycerides go down. Also if LDL the large fluffy kind and not small dense then also good.
Lots my friends that I met from the Healthy Tradition group I was involved with in MI are obese.
Thoroughly enjoyed Will Tuttle and his ideas. I believe we would all benefit from growing more of our own herbs, fruits and veggies. It actually doesn’t take much room in your yard and most can be grown in pots… go vegetarian/vegan! Listening to Sally now so I haven’t formed an opinon on her ideas as yet…Cheers!
I am enjoying hearing from so many health experts and am thankful for this event!
I agree the factory farming (plants and animals) is messed up and unethical! But I feel confused…what about our cats and dogs? They need meat…I would like to hear someone talk about this issue. I feel so confused!
THANK YOU SO MUCH KEVIN FOR THESE DEBATES. I’m sure we all have different opinions. I’m certainly enjoying and learning so much from these debates.
Thanks again
Moe
I greatly appreciate Mr Tuttle’s passion for peace.
I have many questions for him as many of his beautiful sounding ideologies open a proverbial can of worms. “Any animal ownership is violence.” I wonder whats his take on owning domesticating animals for indoor pets? Isnt everyone owning say, a house cat, violent since we are refusing to let them live free outdoors in the wild? Hmmm..perhaps.
Speaking of cats, this leads me to another set of perplexities. As someone who has studied both wild cats and house cats that have returned to the wild (become feral), I can tell you what any expert knows: the natural diet of cats includes mainly small rodents, birds and insects. This is REAL cat food. Without certain elements found in animal foods, such as taurine found in organ meats, they will degenerate and eventually die. Commercial canned cat food is a pleasant way to ignore this fact that you are buying ground up animal parts. And if you don’t, you are in no uncertain terms abusing the animal and arrogantly dishonoring nature.
Followers of Tuttle’s idealism must come to terms with the fact that it is equally part of “beautiful nature” that many animals simply must eat other animals. In fact ALL food is the corpse of a living life form.
His compassion is also at times sorely lopsided, meaning, its focused outward. Compassion is EQUALLY inward, meaning its just as much about showing it toward ourselves. If we refuse an animal food that will help us when all other foods/diets fail to regain our health (as in my own desperate case with multiple doctors and hundreds of unsuccessful suggestions), we are not showing compassion to the animal that is us!
This was a difficult pill for me to swallow as much as I wish I was otherwise: some of us get very sick excluding animal foods no matter how many supplements or superfoods or herbs or local organic vegetables we take in. If I hear anyone telling me “I did it wrong” ..it is profoundly insensitive.
Lastly, living in a Buddhist tradition as I do, many people dont know this but the Dalai Lama eats beef regularly and gets deathly ill when taken off animal foods for long periods of time. We cannot say he is not spiritual! We cannot say he doesnt want to try! We cannot say he doesnt have access to intelligent peaceful doctors.This 100% vegan or not mentality is UNHEALTHY and must go along with all the horrific factory farms.
Peace and health to all.
Agreed.
Well put, thank you.
I agree Laurence
Spirituality have nothing to do with food we eat.
Food is for the body.Spirit lives on different food.
If you bring food in- that is the sign you are not spiritual.Food is of this world,spirit is not.
I used to meditate 3-6 hours and was vegetarian before and met many many unspiritual “spiritual” people through that lifestyle.Now i believe in what is written in the Bible ”everything created by God is good,and nothing received with thanksgiving needs to be rejected,because the word of God and prayer make it holy”.Now i know many truly spiritual people/many eat meat etc.- being spiritual is believing and trusting what God say not our intellect.
And by the way we dont eat conventional large scale farmed meat- as that treatment of animals is against Gods will and i agree with being compassionate to animals on that ground .
Thought provoking. Thanks =)
Dr. Will Tuttle was so right on and so beautiful. Thank you thank you!
Some people are complaining that they didn’t hear enough about this or that, however, there was only a certain amount of time and everything can’t be covered, so that must be taken into consideration.
I believe this is a start to more health debates.
For me, I’m convinced more than ever that a vegan is what I want to be, and I’ll now include nutritarian and alkalarian in my vocabulary because of Dr. Robert Young! This will remind me to eat mostly (say 90%) of high nutrient-rich foods and keep my body alkaline.
Thanks also to David Wolfe and he wonderful suggestions to herbs and foods that keep one healthy!
I didn’t listen to all the talks, but I wanted to hear someone talk about (and maybe this was covered on last night’s talk cause I didn’t listen to it) about how humans don’t crave eating animals, meaning they don’t salivate when they see a cow or pig walk by and run after it, knock it down, use their claws and teeth to kill it and eat the meat. This is how animals in the wild do it. Most humans (and I would say probably a very high percentage) only eat animals because SOMEONE ELSE killed it, and they used either a gun or knives; if they had to kill it the way a natural animal kills another animal, I sincerely doubt they would ever do it.
i walk by a loaded berry bush and salivate! or a fruit tree!
humans have always killed animals with some kind of knife. Why on earth would humans kill an animal the way animals kill an animal?! lol, yeah, let me go latch on to a zebra neck with my bare teeth…
Kevin is host extraordinaire! bringing the best of each side together in a safe venue. Maybe he could ask each host what if anything they might like to retract from their talks… Let them laugh at themselves as their self esteem allows. the idea of talking for an hour without a script staggers the mind and sometimes it will fill in strange little factoids that they will cringe about later. Well done one and all! Thank you… =-)
i would hope it would be more adding the opinions. i miss someone . sadly the vegan was a bit flying in his way. i miss such philosophers like derrick jensen. I really think of jennsen. in comparison tothis spiritual aspect is jennson more on a free aspect without leader. This is a guru game. Without this leaders we are nothing. Everything cost money good health, spirituals, writing, breathing,
I m more for a grassroot thing less radical and more open for the people. Its sad that we orientate so for this leader.
I often think of people who steal spirituality of Native American or Spirituality of their children or disabled children and make money with it. We all have two sides. A dark and a bright. The one kill animals the other kill our sacred spirits. Rather killing animals.
A bit bummed because I only got about ten minutes in before the recording stopped. I don’t know if it will work tomorrow or if I can find time tomorrow to listen in. This is my best time in the next day to make time for this. I actually planned my night around it. And I am dissapointed to not be able to hear this call.
Best,
Flora
I agree with Sally Fallon and the Weston Price Foundation on many things, however, I have tried raw cows’ and then raw goats’ milk for years. And then I could no longer handle it, through reactions with my digestion and skin and body odor. Could not even handle raw fermented dairy. I tried it and feel so much better without it, even though raw cream and yogurt and whole milk is quite delicious. Again, one must find out what works for one’s own body. And one must be able to know one’s own body well enough to feel it out. My mind would love to impose its notions about veganism upon my body, but the body generally wins every time. I have tried.
I don’t like the effects of soy and most grains, or animal foods who have been fed such, either. However, I feel incredible with pastured bison meat added to my high raw plant based diet. Eggs from my friends’ gardens nourish me also. I give my cut-and-re-grown wheatgrass flats to the chickens and they are delighted to get grass, particularly in the winter!
Prairie-fed bison is a local, native species and food for and from the high plains, where I live. Eating many bananas a day would not be sustainable in terms of the petroleum consumption required to ship the bananas from the tropics. Can’t say I have tried the 80/10/10 mostly fruitarian diet, not where I live on the high plains. I may try this diet during the summer when our local fruit is fresh and abundant. But bananas as a basis of one’s diet while living through a North American winter? I love them, and still eat them, and, they are so much better when visiting the tropics, particularly the tastier varieties with seeds and less commercial hybridization.
I respect the spiritual commitment of Will Tuttle and agree with him that factory farming of plants and animals is destructive to Earth and her inhabitants. However, I don’t find a vegan/vegetarian/lacto diet sustainable over the long term for my health and well-being. So I am trying to reconcile the suffering of animals (dying a humane death after a healthy life on pasture) with the suffering of my own being (when I feel malnourished with diminished functioning on a vegan diet), and am reminded of the basic principle of Buddhism which states, “there is suffering.” Yes, there is karma, and yes there is suffering. And I still say yes.
Will Tuttle suggested home gardens as an alternative to monoculture. Yes, so much of our extensive manicured lawns (save a little for playing fields and playgrounds) could be converted into gardens in which we could allow wild plants to grow, like dandelion, lambs quarter, nettle, etc…
I like Will because he brought up some profound insights about how we live our lives & view ourselves in relation to animals. He did not make any false statements that I recall. Sally made some really good points about the soy industry & raw milk, but made some incredibly durogatory statements about vegetarians & vegans & implying that we will all die if we become one. There are no shades of grey as far as she is concerned. No discernment was made from her as to how they may have come to that point. In her mind, being vegetarian makes you ill. I have been vegetarian for many years & thrived. Being a carnivore made me ill. I thing that she is off track in some regards. Sally just states how crazy vegetarians are! I don’t buy everything that she says. I am discusted!!!
Aren’t there large communities of people (like in India) who’ve been vegetarians for generations? As far as I know they don’t seem to be having any health problems….
High rates of type 2 diabetes.
Only after introducing a modern diet.
Yup. Like, thousands of years. Kinda pokes a hole in Sally’s theory. ;-P
South India has one of the highest rates of childhood malnutrition in the world. Some of the smallest people in the world come from vegetarian cultures – India, Guatemala, and parts of the middle east. It’s called stunting – and it happens when children are deprived of animal protein ant minerals during their developmental years (0-5yrs).
Kevin, I never received your comments/summary from yesterday’s talks. Would you please re-send it? Thanks.
I don’t think its up yet.
Wow! I had never heard of Dr. Tuttle before but wow, he just blew me away. I think he’s the best speaker I’ve heard so far, both in presentation and content. I was enthralled the whole time. I think he provided the right response to all the speakers who have said that it is healthier to eat meat — what a selfish outlook. Even if it was personally healthier for your body (which I don’t personally believe), it is unhealthy for your spirit, the animals, society and the planet. Way to go Dr Tuttle for bringing it back to what really matters.
to eat our brother-sister animals is cannibalism because we have to kill them… and their flesh is similar to ours… that’s why similar nutrients are found… if you use that fuzzy-logic, then human flesh would be best to eat…that kind of logic was used by cannibals, who cut out a human heart or other organ…
wake up people, do not be deceived by the Weston Price Foundation’s fuzzy logic and pseudo-science… all of which is funded by the cattle & dairy industry…
Dr Will is right… listen to your heart not your fearful confused mind…
however, animal flesh has no healing micro-nutrients which are found in plants, fruits, seeds & nuts… these offer protection against all sort of diseases from minor to major…
the ANDI score is calculated using the healing micro-nutrients, not the macro-nutrients… that’s why your confusion…
plants, fruits, nuts, seeds live for a season and when ripe fall to the ground ready to reincarnate… regardless if we eat them or not… that’s why everyone should have a garden… which is possible if we restructured our society away from greed and mindless egoic ambitions… away from brutality, violence and murder…
those who feel animal flesh is necessary for sustenance will not restrain themselves from eating human flesh during hard times… as has happened to some degree in famines and other distressed situations…
but, Jesus and others have showed us that the body-life is not that important… but the spirit is… in previous life Buddha willingly intentionally sacrificed his body to feed a wounded lioness with cubs to save her life… who next life became Buddha’s main disciples…
only those with opened hearts to God’s Love can understand Dr Will’s profound message… he is not alone… last Nov 3 2010, top world scientists gathered to speak and their message was… “human race will become extinct unless we turn away from eating animals”… Einstein gave us similar warnings…
reference with several great videos:
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
murdering animals to eat them is neither ethical nor desirable… and completely unnecessary… lets face our demons… confess our mistakes… and grow in light and love… i have been a healthy Vegan for 40 years…
love & light,
anatol
you dont want to understand. yeah we shell listen to our heart.nice that ure very clam this time and friendly anatol. you still missunderstand a lot western price foundation saying. you even misunderstand your own words. How long do you want to push other people in poverty through your misunderstandings
read Kevin’s summary of yesterday,
i think he is beginning to see the light about the pseudoscience of WAPF
and the value of Dr Will’s profound message
thanks
http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/02/13/quick-and-painless-death-for-factory-farmed-animals/
Weston A Price cares about continuing the exploitation of animal by any means necessary…
how’s that?
Ok, I’ve had enough. Humans kill animals in a humane way? Is she serious!? This is just crazy. Wow, I can’t believe some of the stuff she is saying. And Kevin just lets it slide. 99% of meat is from factory farms. Has she ever been to a seen any video of factory farms. I don’t know if I can even listen to anymore.
please listen more carefully.
humane and quick when compared to getting ripped apart by a lion or mountain cat.
would you rather by chewed/or your neck ripped into for 5, 10, 15 excruciation minutes? or taken out with a blow to the head?
mistakes happen but not every single time.
animals in the wild roam free, with all the open space they want, out in nature. Sure they will eventually die, but at least they were able to live. Unlike animals in a factory farm who aren’t even given a life. From birth they are caged, mutalated, live indoors in cramped dirty environments, not even seeing a blade of grass or the sun their entire life. Which would you choose?
paleo and veg agree that those conditions are not good. we are talking about the actual killing of the animal
ah yeh,…and you think the killing is done softly softly???
no, not softly, we are not tucking them into bed we are killing them. we are talking about unnecessary suffering. so quick and painless would be ideal, while we are thankful for the nourishment we get from the animal.
i dont think the bacteria that eat us, and then recycle our bodies for future life, are so thankful.
the food chain as a pyramid is a delusion. its actually a circle.
Actually usually in the wild the pain would be numbed as they would be extremely exhausted from the chase, and then the animal usually goes for the jugular, which is probably not very painful comparatively.
Chris, you haven’t heard about farms doing it differently. Here, animals roam free and happy. These places are increasing in number because of conscious omnivores supporting them. Even though the FDA rages against them. You should celebrate these places and promote them as the way for omnivores to obtain the health they need, without abusing those animals that give it to them.
http://www.polyfacefarms.com/
http://www.chaffinfamilyorchards.com/
Mila (above) wanted Will Tuttle to say more about health and the benefits of veganism. Instead he focused on consciousness and the direction that our civilization needs to go.
The lack of awareness as to the suffering that a meat-eating diet causes is probably one of the things that is making our society not sustainable. It’s been “business as usual” for so long and it is that conditioning and way of life that may bring us to our end times.
I came from a small family farm in the Midwest (before the advent of big corporate farming). We ate both meat and vegetables. Mom and Dad always grew a HUGE garden with a large variety of vegetables. Animals were grown for food as well, but killing them was not for sport…it was for food, for which we were always thankful. Animals were grown in the pastures on grass, and they were prized and cared for. When they were butchered for food there was very little waste. Even the tails were used for “oxtail soup.” We bought little from the store: mainly salt and sugar. Mom baked bread every week. We and our neighbors in the community were quite self sufficient. We thanked God for the provision for our needs. Mother canned food and fermented some for the winter. I believe canned food is dead food, but it was better than nothing when gardens were not feasible in the snowdrifts! Big semi trucks didn’t deliver oranges and strange new vegetables from California. We ate what we grew. Oranges and apples were enjoyed only at Christmas time. I grew up on wonderful raw milk, lots of cream, and we had wonderful free range eggs with rich dark yolks from the purslane the chickens found to eat in the wild. We worked hard and were not fat! I, too, believe that factory farming is wrong, but like so much else in this world it has sprung out of greed. I often wish we could go back to the way things were, but people are way too soft these days. They wouldn’t want to work that hard. We had no indoor plumbing and carried all our water to the house from the well. Inside bathrooms were for city folk. I think the Amish still live more like I used to years ago. Their children are not vaccinated and they don’t have the rate of autism and sickness so many children have today. I was born just before MSG was invented! Oh horrors!!! We’d certainly be better off without all the drugs and chemicals on the market and all the natural fats hydrogenated as they are today! It’s nice to see some things changing though, and I’m so encouraged by these health debates! Thank you, Kevin and all the presenters. Blessings to all.
Thanks Lola. great comment.
Thanks Lola from me Too. So good words. that is real love and real light.
this vegans steals your spirits. some are spiritual vampires
Kevin,
I truly admire your self restraint. On several occasions I would have had to call her on what was obviously untrue or manipulative BS!
Amen to that
I don’t. Why the self restraint. An interviewer is supposed to ask follow-up questions and challenge the guest. I don’t see what’s to be admired.
Yes Kevin, why all the politeness and restraint and why so many representatives of WAPF with all their fuzzy-logic and pseudo-science ?
Would it not have been better to have more like Dr Will… it’s time to realize that it’s a real serious question of human species extinction if we continue to eat animals?
Would it not be better to hear some real solid honest science like that presented at
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
and invite some of those like Dr Brown… or any of them… Dr Fuhrman & Dr Esselstyn also participated in that conference…
I don’t remember, did John Robbins speak? was he invited ? A real pioneer and a most decent heart: http://www.johnrobbins.info/
Still appreciate you pulling off these debates… but i feel with WAPF we are in trouble…
yes I agree totally with Chris.. like I said in my comment below, when she didn’t answer when Kevin questioned her on the point she was making, and then worse he didn’t follow it up…!
let down.
Just one more note…there are farmers who are going back to raising animals in a humane way, moved from pasture to pasture for organic grown grass, not penned up in sloppy corrals without breathing room. Some of the writers here appear so pompous against killing for food. Don’t you people watch animal kingdom on PBS? Animals kill each other for food for heaven’s sake. And if you want to get truthful, vegetables are alive too. We harvest them and cut off their life supply so we can eat them!!!!!!
Yes, you are right. We are on a planet where one living being is food for another. As a child I questioned that. Why do we live on a planet where this happens? I could see that I had a choice. I choose not to kill animals. Yes, it is true that we are killing plants when we cut them down. We can not even live on this planet without killing someone’s body. I feel a little freaked out by this realization and would like to find another planet to live on where this does not happen. Until then I will do what I believe to be less violent and only eat fruits veggies seeds and nuts, and possibly dairy someday form an animal that is love and will be left to live out it’s days, if that is what feel most healthy for me. I don’t believe that I’m better than you. I just choose not to eat anything with eyes that look at me. It is the nature of some animals to kill and eat meat. It is my souls nature to find a more loving peaceful way. Thanks for your comment.
seeds huh? you know you are eating babies right?
Sooo… by your logic it would be no more wrong to eat a human infant,
than it is to eat a seed from a plant which is meant to be eaten and spread with feces?
one of our kids worked out that it is impossible to be vegan because we all eat bacteria on food so we are eating a living creature!
We are not carnivores. Simple as that.
I have nothing against a lion eating another animal. They have no choice.
We can’t live without vegetables but we can live without meat. We have a choice. Simple as that.
No we are not carnivores but we ARE omnivores.
We can live without vegetables like the Inuit. But I’d rather have a small bit of meat with my veggies.
actually you got that backwards.
we can survive without crabs, but we cant survive with out fat and protein.
Well said.
Sally Fallon is an IDIOT. She is flat out lying and shes been so brain washed she probably does not even know it. All I can do is pick out flaws in her argument. For those who can’t find a flaw in her argument here’s a simple one – She states, ” arechidonic acid can only be found in animals, and it is essential to the body.” Yes it is essential to the body. The body bio synthesis (makes) arechidonic acid with linoleic acid (omega 6 fatty acid), which is readily available in plant sources. Of course criminals are going to get sick eating that much soy. There is a healthy and unhealthy way to be vegetarian, and consuming so much processed soy products is very unhealthy but that is not how every vegan eats. Organic whole foods, plant based diets DO bring optimal health.
DILUTED SEA SALT MINERALS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT FERTILIZER. CHEAP, ABUNDANT, HEALTH GIVING. Let the animals roam wild, go where they want to go. My bicep is large enough without them in my belly.
there is no potassium or sulfer in sea salt
I don’t feel that I’m depriving myself if I don’t eat meat. I do believe that eating dairy is fine if it comes form a healthy source. I just get sick when I eat any animal products. I was raised on a SAD diet and of course that type of meat eating is very bad for us. I was so sick form this life style. I became a vegetarian when I was 17 and felt better. Still by the time I was 30 I felt so ill. The effects of the SAD diet and life style messed up my digestion so much that I could not make it on a standard vegetarian organic diet. So I did the Body Ecology Diet by Donna Gates for 5 years and felt a little better but still suffered so much! Now I have been 99% raw for 10 years and stay away form too much fruit and I feel better than I ever have. Still I am not in perfect health. I am open. I just won’t kill animals. Lovingly caring for them and using their milk is what the vegetarian cultures in India have done. I am open to trying that someday if possible. I have healthy children who I raised on an organic whole foods vegetarian diet.
I do not believe I am more spiritual. I just choose not to Kill. We are here to choose.
In no way is picking a mango off a 300 year old mango tree the same as killing, milking, or force menstruating an animal, no matter how humane.
For sure!
Sally Fallons talk made me glad to be vegetarian. Her talk was riddled with holes.
For example she states that here in Australia we are milking Kangaroo’s !? I laughed so hard at that. This lady is off her meaty head. No Kangaroo milk in the supermarket or health food store last time I looked and I live in Sydney.
She states that Vegans who are healthy must of been brought up eating meat and dairy. Well, as the body renews every cell in it every 7 years how come Will Tuttle & hundreds of thousands of other vegans are still healthy and disease free after 3 or 4 decades or more on their vegan diets ? Huh Sally ??
She states the the USA has a HUGE problem with infertility- yet only @ 3% of that country is Vegan or Vegetarian so the numbers do not add up as the other 97% are eating meat and dairy. Surely they should be breeding like rabbits. Which they are- population control is the elephant in the room. If eating meat and dairy makes for good fertility then why oh why are fertility rates dropping ?
She states that animals dont suffer for our plates. They suffer from the day they are born til the day they are murdered. One only has to watch Earthlings to disprove her. Even Kosha slaughterhouses are not Kosha ! The suffering that we inflict on animals is atrocious and unimagineable to the average punter who buys their sterile slabs of meat from the butcher and thinks they have no part in the torture and murder of hundred of millions of sentient beings every day around the globe.
Sally says Vegans have Down Syndrome babies – with no scientific back up. Where is her proof ? To say that vegan mothers should not have babies and also are probably infertile anyway is just heresay and outstanding nutritional ignorance.
Sally says that Vegetarians say they eat chicken and fish. She laughs. I laugh at her as she clearly demonstrates she has never met a real vegan or Vego in her life ! I dont know 1 Vegan/vego who says something so dumb ! What rock has she been living under again ? Hello- earth to Sally !
When someone says something so dumb its really hard to listen to any points she may have that are good !
Sally states we need animals. No, we dont.
We needed animals for furs and string apparantly. Well, if we didnt move to the colder climes then we wouldnt need furs etc. Humans are not meant to live in cold climates. We can make string and clothing from plants. There goes her argument there. The humans who were migrating to colder climes may of died without animals but the indigenous humans who stayed in the climate they were born in would of been just fine.
Who has ever healed cancer from meat eating ? Thats the first thing you are told to give up to heal yourself when diseased. Why bother eating it in the first place ?
If her way of eating was so good then how come all these non vegans are suffering from exponential rates of disease ??
I agree with some of her points on soy, however the informed Vegan only eats fermented soy which doesnt have the problems. Only unfermented soy is bad. Big difference.
I’ve no idea how hard it must of been for Kevin to not challenge her on some of her screamingly absurb comments. He’s a better man than me.
oh for goodness sake sally did not say we milk kangaroos. weston price’s research was on traditional cultures not current! she’s talking about aborigines. but of course there are two things here – one is that most aborigines are so far removed from their ancient/traditional ways that perhaps it is true there are no more milking kangaroos, and second of all even if there were, who would think it was relevant as aborigines are a very minor and misunderstood race. (and btw i’m white, not a drop of aboriginal blood, but this logic disturbs me)
I wholeheartedly agree with Will Tuttle. When we stop, long enough to breathe, to look into the eyes of a cow, to see the beauty, the gentleness, the magnificence of these creatures – take in the meaning of the word ‘ahimsa’ meaning Kindness, Tenderness,essential Wisdom – we see that we don’t need our after-church meat-centred pot luck rituals, our raping of the rainforests for tastebud satisfaction. Healthy, kind, freeing, environmentally responsible is what eating vegan is, for us, for animals and for the planet that we all share.
Yes, we are on this planet for a reason. I don’t think that I’m “Better because I feel the same way as Will.” We are all in this together. Some do have a HIGHER consciousness than others. I think that means more awareness. You can see it everywhere. Think about it. Do you think there is a better way to kill and eat meat than the slaughter houses? Well then you have some more awareness than the ones who don’t care. We are never stagnant. We always move forward. Just because we live on a planet where one is food for another does not mean it is the nature of the soul to live this way. So people eat people! What do you think of that? You get what you want. What you desire as a human. If you want to eat meat then you can. It is the law of attraction. If you see the animals as sentient beings and you desire to protect them then you will find yourself in a situation that will provide for this. We have a choice.
If someone came to your house and burned it to the ground would that be an inconvenience to you? Would you feel sad or hurt? Would you want that person to pay for what they did? What if someone damaged the house your soul lives in?
The same is for animals. If you take their house you cause some inconvenience. You may have to pay for that some how. If you are aware of that, then you can go ahead knowing what it is your doing is better than not knowing.
Einstein said insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. He also warned if our consciousness does not evolve and expand into more compassion expressed as vegetarianism, peace etc, the human species is in trouble…
Many species on earth have come and gone… so all the arguments justifying our present misdeeds on the past… are just BS… we either evolve as a species or disappear…
Dr Will’s profound message… he is not alone… last Nov 3 2010, top world scientists gathered to speak and their message was… “human race will become extinct unless we turn away from eating animals”…
reference with several great videos including Dr Fuhrman:
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
the inhumane way animals are raised & then murdering animals to eat them is neither ethical nor desirable… and completely unnecessary… lets face our demons… confess our mistakes… and grow in light and love… i have been a healthy Vegan for 40 years…
love & light !
it can happen that hardcore vegan shock SAD eaters with their hardcore opinion and their speaching against everything which has more dimension than their own thoughts.
Just for notice
good night vegan pride
Go back in time, how in the world could we have evolved without protein from animals? Fruit was only local and limited, ditto vegetables, and though the Irish ate 14 pounds of potatoes per day, they had many diabetic problems. The idea that we kill an animal to live and how could we be so cruel, one might think that the pet brigade is the result of humans using animals for work, protection (The barked when strangers approached, etc.) and ultimately kind of like surrogate 2-4 year old children. We have developed a world that is against nature, quite neurotic and when I hear some guy coming on about ‘who’ we eat, I and to think mindfully when one eats and I realize the flower children of the late 60′s are still with us. They created sex, weirdness, and about the time those nutcases committed suicide so they could hop on a meteor going by I realized many people are quite insane. I don’t care what people do anymore, but I have noticed a distinct, infuriating, and ridiculous tendency Vegan have in expressing their views and vegetarians are a close second. If one evolves into either camp simply because they wake up one day and find apples, broccoli and kale the food the desire, it probably makes sense, but there’s a problem with most of them, “More than four cups/week of the following foods—in the RAW form only—will interfere with your thyroid gland function. You can eat as much of these foods cooked as you want to—except tofu and soy products. The foods are: Brussels sprouts, cabbage of all kinds, cauliflower, kale, kohlrabi, peaches, pears, rapini (a vegetable similar to broccoli,) spinach, strawberries, radishes, rutabagas and turnips.” The woman who talks about Vegan women having healthy babies, might be true providing they don’t have more than two, after that the vegetarian and Vegan women are pretty much used up. Personally, I knew five women, three who had miscarriages, one whose doctor found her hemoglobin so low he suggested she either eat red meat or die. She took his advice. The last of the bunch looked like a human skeleton. What we have here, in my humble opinion is food fanaticism much like religion, only what we want is to extend our lives a few years because we have a strong suspicion there isn’t life after we die. John Mortimer wrote in he Rumpole of the Bailey books, “If one denies themselves some of the sheer pleasure of life (in Rumpole’s case, red wine), just so they can live five years longer it isn’t worth it, do what you want because in the end we all go the same way.” (Or words to that effect. This would really be good if it came to anything, for instance start a health congress, contribute money each month to take the FDA, Monsanto, and a few dozen other well targetted and most evil corporations like Monsanto, to court, make a huge deal of it and change the way we farm, raise cattle and children, and quit pandering to those morons in DC, and other places who seem to think we have no rights unless they sanction them, all designed to rob us of our money, energy and time. All this talk, talk, talk, is a lot of hot hair, because it goes nowhere. Where are the real revolutionaries willing to go to war, educate the masses using the same methods corporations use, advertise the evils done to us, our children, the planet, and most of all, do it in such a way we don’t look like nut cases. The fact is, what we buy from supermarkets is plain crazy, 99% of its designed to make money for a bunch of sociopaths or those who embrace the mantra of the sociopath, and there are over 3,000,000 sociopaths who rarely go to jail, they’re the ones who put people in jail. Getting back to veggies and fruits, here are some other foods that have goitrogenic activity, soybeans (tofu), pine nuts, peanuts, millet, and rapeseed (Canola Oil.) The point is, we are leading bogus lives, eating non-foods (most people), working at jobs we hate when we really come down to it, raising our children with something called, “The Work Ethic,” which means they’ll subscribe to become willing slaves to the wealthy, we are stressed out, overfed, over exposed to news, TV, car travel, bad air, bad food, bad water, and bad politicians whose goal is to rip us off without us suspecting it. William Buckley had a friend who wrote a book, titled, Our Enemy, The State.” They’re in bed with business and business is where a huge band of sociopaths hang out and hang us.
We are overfed AND UNDERNOURISHED.
I honestly can’t even read your extremely long post of mumbo-jumbo, but excuse me, women being “used up” after two children is quite insulting. There is no such thing as a woman being “used up.” Moreover, there are lots of healthy vegan women out there with more than two children.
Sally is completely off base saying that you cannot be a vegan and raise healthy children. It is being done all the time, she does not know what she is talking about. I wish Kevin would give more of his own experience. Is he a vegan? He doesn’t really talk about his diet that much, I’ve heard him say he eats a high raw diet. Is he vegan? Of course there are healthy and unhealthy vegetarians. So if you don’t eat meat you’re automatically going to be unhealthy? Look around there are tons of healthy vegans that have been so for 30+ years. She really frustrated me, but it’s good to get challenged sometimes, and stand your ground. Don’t be swayed vegans, it’s all good. Whole foods, plenty of fruits and vegetables, nuts and seeds, seaweeds, EFAs like hemp, flax and algae and you’ll be all good. Don’t buy this BS she is trying to put out there to scare the vegans out there.
right on Chris, keep posting…
i have been a healthy vegan for 40 years now; doing much better than when i was a meat eater for the first 31 years of my life…
recently, i just added green juicing and it’s great; i was inspired by amazing documentary http://www.fatsickandnearlydead.com
The persons coming through checkout lines at Whole Foods and a few other such markets are dedicated no meat, no saturated fat, well, may coconut oil, people. To call them crazy is sour grapes, nor this wild-eyed in your face proclamation by Chris, and his absolute sureness that Sally and a few others like her are spreading lies and misinformation against Vegan and vegetarian diets is simply false. Sally got very ill on Granola, desperately ill, and when she dropped that processed junk and turned to real food based on Weston Price’s research, real science and finding, she go well. It’s true some people do fine on a Vegan and vegetarian diet, just as many do well on meat, eggs, raw milk, etc., diet and though we can argue the merits of both, it depends on how those choices make us feel, look, and live. Certainly on both sides, there are horror stories, but often it’s steeped in a high coke, high McDonald’s, beer drinking, TV watching platform in one area or non-organic, packaged soy products, not understanding the built in resistance many fruits, vegetables, nuts and grains contain and suffering because of it. There are some people, endowed with great digestive systems that can do well on such foods, for awhile, but there’s an interesting line in a paragraph in a book titled, “Breaking The Vicious Cycle by Elaine Gottshall, that says, “Almost all normal people fail to absorb a large amount of the starch of wheat flour” Then adds, This incomplete absorption of starch results in an increase in intestinal fermentation and the production of intestinal gas. In an effort to discover why wheat starch is not completely digested by many people, investigations were conducted relating to the physical structure of wheat flour. It was found that wheat flour is composed of granules containing a starch core surrounded by a network of gluten protein. This protein-starch complex can be separated by a manufacturing process whereby most of the gluten is removed. The remaining flour is sold as low-gluten flour and when it is substituted for regular wheat flour, there is an improvement in starch digestion. The surprising thing is, when this flour is baked with gluten flour starch malabsorption does not occur.
The point is, however, since wheat could never have been a food of choice way back when, why do we eat it now? Quite simple, it was accessible, hunger existed, and out of desperation methods were formed to make it palatable. Is it a good food? Probably not, but by fermenting and sprouting it is made somewhat beneficial.
Sally Fallon, Dean Ornish, and a few others believe in what they do, they have, essentially put their heart and soul into their work but there’s a problem in that it’s hard to see the forest for the trees, that is, we, myself included, want to think there’s an absolute we should follow but there’s only one: Anything we eat or drink processed and manufactured by mainstream corporations like GF, Kraft Foods (owned by Altria, once called Phillip Morris), Nestlé’s, Coco Cola, Pepsi, an a conglomeration of companies that do trillions of dollars of business each year, are enemies to life, to the planet, our children, and if they finally eliminate those like us, who oppose them, humans will fall into oblivion. Jonas Salk said, “ If all the insects were to disappear from the earth, within 50 years all life on earth would end. If all human beings disappeared from the earth, within 50 years all forms of life would flourish.”
And who are most responsible for what is approaching, Government, corporations, and us, us because we fail to organize, appoint and support strong-minded, passionate individuals and contribute, each month, from five to 1000 dollars in a non-profit fund to take government to task, to sue Monsanto until the go broke and point out the fact that if such companies are found guilty and fined, they pay the fine by increasing prices which means those they hurt pay the fine, and government knows that. They, Monsanto, need to be crippled, and put out of business. Those who support the Monsanto’s of the world are either sociopaths or those who embrace the sociopath’s Mantra, which basically says, “Screw people, it’s the money and power that counts.” We’ve come a crossroad, and instead of seeing the power involved in each camp, be it “Vegan, vegetarian, Omnivore or Carnivores, let’s not forget our sharp toothed friends in the jungles and forests, what we’re arguing about is a waste of time. Sally and Mary Enig are wonderful people as are many in the Vegan and vegetarian camp, but we’re fighting among ourselves as if that will somehow matter. We merely talk and think, hope or delude ourselves into believing our contribution will win some advocates, but it goes only to the surface and fails to solve the real problems, which is our soil, water, air, economic madness, food, education of children to be pawns for corporations or government, etc. There are 3,578 Natural food stores and if those stores have an average clientele of 2000 people, whole foods and PCC have way beyond that number, that means there are 7 to 10 million people going to such markets alone, and this doesn’t include farmers markets that are thriving, which probably means another 5-6 million. So, supposing 15,000,000 people did what the Mormons and some other organizations do, tithe, at a rate of 50.00 average per month. That would mean 9,000,000,000 billion dollars per year to go after: The FDA, the Monsanto’s of the world, Industrial Farmers, always choosing the most visible, and creating trouble for all those who are killing life until they quit or change. It can be done, but only if we quit fighting and join forces. All the passion and intelligence that exists among us is a force of nature and it can change the world to be what it’s supposed to be, not a place where Gross National Product is what matters, but Gross National Happiness, whereby all the people matter, and nothing that harms nature, people animals, plants water, air, food, or life is acceptable. It’s a big job but a necessary one.
When I was a child eating meat I had a gag reaction. When I was young I questioned meat eating. There were such beautiful cows living down the street form me and I used to go sit by the fence. They would come over and let me pet them through the fence. The kids at school were mean to me so the cows were my friends. Their eyes felt so comforting to look into. Eating them did not make since to me.
let’s do a little research:
Weston A. Price Foundation… They advocate a diet high in saturated fat, which according to our best scientific knowledge is linked to a higher risk of heart disease and stroke. WAPF simply denies that such a link exists, sort of like how tobacco companies simply denied the link between smoking and lung cancer.
On the soy front, they point to studies where animals were injected with extracts of soy protein and got sick, and ignore studies where humans ate traditional soy foods and improved their health. (It is true, though, that overconsumption of processed soy foods is not healthy. Choose tempeh over TVP.)
There’s a good series of articles about WAPF at vegsource.com, and a critique of their FUD about vegetarianism at energygrid.com.
Of course, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, and they do have a good point about the prevalence of processed food in the standard Western diet. Apart from that, though, it’s mostly nonsense.
from : http://unreasonable.org/node/1642
You might try checking out Gary Taubes’ book Good Calorie, Bad Calorie. He does a great job walking through the history of the scientific literature on sat fat. Really a smart, smart book. My sense of the literature after evaluating it pretty objectively is that saturated fat isn’t bad. Whole Source Health, PANU, Hyperlipid, and several other such blogs also have posts about it that aren’t quite as thorough but won’t cost fifteen bucks.
umm.. there are lots of studies debunking the saturated fat myth
Exactly
There’s a good series of articles about WAPF at vegsource.com, and a critique of their FUD about vegetarianism at energygrid.com.
umm.. there are lots of studies debunking the saturated fat myth
So long it works very well for people you will not change its. You can waste you time to find against it or you learn to love this way.
This vegan extreme arguments, dont bring a good way to eat animals. Show how this people get there nutrient in a different way. People dont have the money for this expensive vegan diet. The vegan diet shipped from all around the world. Poor workers working for the lazy vegans. What a shame. Better eat animal be local and look at workers friendly.
A bit animal consume is in lots of ways more environmental friendly. If there is a positive utopia of a vegan society, which works and sound nice in fantasy it will come.
So far the vegans allways wanna rant and claim force something or critisize everything they dont know so long they wont win.
Deear vegans expres your positiv side. Your negative side suck us to our grave . and dead we cant change to your argumentation. We are already dead weather we are vegan or animal eaters.
Actually, there was never a proven link between saturate fat in diet and disease. It was a giant leap that one researcher proposed and the processed food industry glommed onto to market and sell packaged lowfat products under the auspices of health. Media and mainstream America got on board and no one looked back to actually look at the facts.
I’m encouraged that this is coming out now — I even saw a mainstream magazine cover the saturated fat myth.
One thing we can all agree on is that processed food is not a natural food and should be avoided by all who value life.
What I’ve concluded is that time and time again vegans are able to prove how and why animal products are not a healthful food for humans while those who advocate a animal-based diet throw anything out there to try and defend the eating of animals. With all that we know today I really find it hard to believe that people still think animal products are healthy! I understand it may be difficult for lots of people to wrap their head around and it’s hard to feel like what you’ve “known” your entire life is wrong. I know this because I’ve been there! Diet/lifestyle changes are the hardest to make but they are the most rewarding. There will always be people on both sides of the fence despite the facts because the meat and dairy industry will never want people to know the truth as long as the truth hurts their bottom line. I don’t like to bring politics into the equation but I think it’s embedded into the industry thus relevant to include here. Eat a whole foods plant based mostly raw (if not all raw) diet done the RIGHT WAY and you will never doubt it’s not our species specific diet.
I think meat-eating folks who post here (intersted in Sally Fallon’s message) loathe big beef and dairy operations. In fact, we actively fight against them. Toxic sludge factories that should be shut down. The arguments from the vegans here should reflect that. It’s fine to step outside your door and criticize the clueless masses for supporting such putrid facilities, but making that point on this board is off-topic. WAPF is built upon clean food of all kinds.
I also tire of the belittling higher-consciousness arguments here. Again, WAPF folks are pretty clued-in to their bodies and their health journeys. I myself, when I was less-aware, was a vegetarian for 8 years and a vegan for 3. Then, as my journey continued and I studied, lived, and meditated more, I found that mindful eating of animal foods along with properly prepared grains and vegetables was right for me. I actually feel for me, veganism, was something I practiced when LESS enlightened.
Most tradtional foods folks I know did not happen upon WAPF and then mindlessly adopt it’s principals. Most have been on a journey and found the organization to reflect many of their already-solidified beliefs. There are some things in Sally’s book I disagree with, there are some things she says (particularly in this debate) that I disagree with, but I do value the advocacy and community that WAPF offers. I’m not into dogma and use my own mind when deciding how to live my life. I know lots of vegans who do the same. I know many who get caught up in dogma. I just hope for each of you, you think for yourselves, respecting your own journey.
yay well said
“The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women created for men.”
—Alice Walker, THE COLOR PURPLE
Dr Tuttle is awesome! What a great reminder of a way for a maintaining a peaceful and healthy universe. I would have liked him to have had enought time to explain how killing of animals affects our behavior.
Check out John Robbins’ article on the Weston A. Price foundation and Sally Fallon. http://www.vegsource.com/news/2009/11/reflections-on-the-weston-a-price-foundation.html
Also, check out a recent photo of Sally Fallon, healthy?http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_YCdExf_cF3g/Swx2NRb-M_I/AAAAAAAAAmw/6GRGsLRBkhk/s1600/Sally+%26+Molly.jpg
thanks Chris, was looking for her picture… not healthy…
also extracted this from link you give:
“In 1934, Price wrote a moving letter to his nieces and nephews, instructing them in the diet he hoped they would eat. “The basic foods should be the entire grains such as whole wheat, rye or oats, whole wheat and rye breads, wheat and oat cereals, oat-cake, dairy products, including milk and cheese, which should be used liberally, and marine foods.” Yet the Weston A. Price Foundation aggressively promotes the consumption of beef, pork and other high-fat meats, while condemning people who base their diets on whole grains.”
They don’t condemn people who eat whole grains they preach the best way to prepare these foods for maximal absorption.
I’ve seen this open-jacket picture circulated before. We all have unflattering pictures of us out there. Though obese is certainly not healthy, thinness is not a measure of health. At 63, I think Sally looks pretty vibrant.
Did you check out pic of Madelaine Tuttle – she looks terrible. Sally is fuller-faced and is definitely circled but I don’t thin this makes her unhealthy. Madelaine is quite wasted in her arms and body.
Curvier NOT circled.
I would prefer to be considered “terrible” looking in the beholder’s eyes than to be “fuller” or “good-looking” by stealing the lives, freedom, and joy from innocent mothers and babies, and be a partial cause of a never-ending war on nature, and epidemics of war, hunger, disease, and violence. Bless you, Sue.
You need to help yourself before you can help others. You need to honour your health first.
Looks like we wont have to worry about this debate in 50 or 60 years since only meat eaters will remain due to infertility according to Sally. I find it hard to argue that factory farming is a humane way for animals to die. Sure if we don’t kill them something will, sure how about old age? I guess there is always being torn apart and starvation too. But most of these animals wouldn’t need to exist to be tortured in the first place if people didn’t eat meat. She seemed very close minded and opinionated. But maybe its just that vegetarians are very emotional because our brains are not supported and we get very anxious and cant engage in very measured, rational debates?
She doesn’t advocate factory farming, for the hundredth time. Person after person keeps accusing her of advocating factory farming. Do you people not know that there are alternatives to factory farming? To which conscious omnivores are flocking? There are places where the animals frolic freely to and fro. And there are people who–knowing the factory farm situation–only patronize these little, happy places. These farms, and their customers, deserve congratulations for taking a stand against the criticism of the brainwashed SADers, and the greedy thugs of the FDA.
What do you think guys of http://www.drkelley.info/?page_id=47
to find out what is the best diet for each individual person?
Thank you for the fascinating debates.
As a Weston Price chapter leader i am listening to all viewpoints here with an open mind, and learning a lot. Three points I would like to make:
1.Weston Price himself set out to find a healthy vegetarian society and was disappointed not to find one.
2.The Weston Price foundation is not funded by the meat or dairy industries – in fact these industries are a major source of opposition because the foundation is basically saying their products are toxic rubbish, and we are supporting the small farmers the food corporations are trying to put out of business
3.Sally Fallon is an incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent lady with a great deal of energy, drive, and stamina – she is 62 and has more get up and go than most people half her age
Okay, now that this is all over, here’s my prediction:
Tomorrow night in the wrap-up, or in the very near future, Kevin comes out as a reborn ‘conscientious omnivore’. Maybe that’s what this whole thing was really about . . . seems like it . . .
Yes, so many longstanding vegans are finding a different way as they journey towards health, both physical and environmental. Kevin could certainly be next.
Sounds like an absurd theory. Simply because he was trying to give a “balanced” perspective (I don’t think comparing the arguments for meat eating and veganism even a fair comparison) you think he will go to meat eating?
The player 2 turned itself of after 50 minutes. The talk had not finished and There was no second speaker. Why was this?
Did someone not like what was being said?
Love Will Tuttle. I think he’s right in what he says. We have more than enough land to feed everyone if we were not using it feed the animals and the rich corporations interests.
The player turned off a few times for me for both speakers. I just had to exit out completely then go back to talk and forward to position where it stopped. It usually then resumed again.
“Stephen Byrnes… enjoys robust health on a diet that includes butter, cream, eggs, meat, whole milk, dairy products and offal.” In fact, Stephen Byrnes suffered a fatal stroke in June, 2004. According to reports of his death, he had yet to reach his 40th birthday”
while that’s technically true, he died of complications related to AIDS, so in this case his diet may be a bit of a red herring…
there’s a few well known vegans who have died young too, but rather than looking to make other people wrong, maybe we could just share an interest in quality foods!
To ask whether it is right to kill and eat meat, you just have to put yourself in the position of an animal who is butchered for human food. These animals have feelings just like us – they feel fear and pain which you can clearly see if you’ve watched any footage from an abbatoir. If we were those animals, we would want to live healthy and happy lives, not to be treated as mere commodities for human consumption. The killing of 70 millions animals a day is a genocide beyond any human genocide seen in this world. The key is compassion and with that view, the eating of any meat apart from those that have died from roadkill or natural causes is seen as unsupportable because of the cruelty with which it has been produced.
The killing of 70 millions animals a day is a genocide beyond any human genocide seen in this world. The key is compassion and with that view, the eating of any meat apart from those that have died from roadkill or natural causes is seen as unsupportable because of the cruelty with which it has been produced.
i know some animals whant to be killed. This vegan vegetarian lifestyle is genocide it rants against cultures, there are truck transports to deliver all the vegan food. All the small microorganism who die for the vegan lifestyle bugs and small mammals who looseing thier homes.
We have to make our urban settlements and livingplaces more human and environmental friendly that the animals who settle there can be eaten.
First step so far everything is so polluted by toxins and this hateful vegan ideas. The first step is to follow a plant based diet to keep clean . When toxins are out of the system we can farm animals again.
There will be more vegan ways of eating food in the next years and thats very coll and good for all. As well we will be more and more adapt to the toxins and learn to live with some toins in the food and are. We humans will mutate like we ever did. So we will eat meat in good scale, it will be all different. It will be unimaginable how it will become more weird than today.
I liked Sallys talk and saw her in person when she was here. If only we could grow our own foods and raise animals for food that would be healthiest way.
Sue, how can you like her talk when she insulted broad groups of people over and over again? There were so many talks this weeks by meat-eaters that were polite and non-judgmental. Yet, instead of focusing on the benefits of meat, Sally repeatedly insulted vegans and vegetarians to try to make her points.
The question we have to ask ourselves are:
DO WE NEED TO KILL IN ORDER TO SURVIVE?
- the answer is no, we can choose a more compassionate way of living.
It would be totally different if we were carnivores, or lived in such conditions where there would be no other alternatives than hunt for meat.
It’s about eating enough animal products for optimal health rather then use supplements to get the nutrients that are missing or not in adequate quantities on a vegan diet.
Some choose to honor our gift of the body by thriving, not merely surviving. Albeit, we do not honor ourselves if we mindlessly consume. But mindful nose-to-tail consumption of animals raised with love? That surpasses the best vegan diet in terms of impact on the earth and all it’s creatures.
We need to be aware of all the consequences of our actions. It’s obvious (and important) to consider the actual animal to be eaten. But what about wasted land, water, resources used in necessarily non-local vegan diets that harm other animals?
I am frustrated by Sally’s defensive arguments. I wish she had focused more on biodynamic farming rather than compare CAFO slaughters with those in the wild. We can do much better than big at food. Blecht. She was terribly off-point — and offputting.
Big ag, sorry.
From tomorrow we must start train all animals which are eating meat to eat only vegetables fruits and grains. Plants don’t have life until they (or we) find a way to communicate with us. After that happens we can start eating air. I would like to see similar sensitivity in the next war of USA against human beings. For those who are forgetting easily, look for videos with victims from Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq. Don’t tell me. There weren’t vegetarian.
If I may ask, what does the victims from Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq has to do with vegetarianism? I did not understand your point.
I also suggest everyone to try and communicate with plants, it would clear up a lot of confusion about their feelings.
It is obvious Ms Fallon works in behalf of the
meat industry, convincing us that veganism
is causing many health problems in children
and adults. She is opinionated and lacks
good research material knowing vegans, when
eating a well balanced diet have more stamina
energy, vitality and do not have health issues.
I have been vegan for over 35 years, raised
my children this way, and now my children are
raising theirs… they are healthy, happy and
very bright never having a sick day.
You just made an unfounded accusation on her. She’s fighting against the meat industry mafia, dear, not promoting it.
To say that only the spirit is everithing and the body is not important, is ignoring the fact that a mind that does not look after the body naturaly,is out of touch with our spirit,and it has been and continues to be sistematically programed by a sistem that lives from sickness,and specially sickness that disables natural awareness,which means sickness that derives from meat and any food that needas to be cooked.This kind of nutrition destrois us and our planet. It is good to understand that to have good heathy food, we need a good healthy planet,so just save your self and the planet will give you what is yours by your real nature.
we need to rebuild our planet to the paradise it’s meant to be.and I mean it, not religiously,or dreamming, but simply reality.
A proper diet of body and mind will get our mind under the direction of our spirit,where we find the needed guidance of the Eternal Infinite inteligence.
First we must stop killing human beings for money and then care for our brothers (animals we eat). I hope that all animals are taken as brothers, even those eating meat. There are so many missing links to our connection with mother nature that have to be reestablish before spending so much energy to persuade meat eaters stop eating meat. I would never ask for a person who is not eating meat and feels healthy and robust to eat meat. I feel the opposite is happening.
Thank you to everyone who has posted information about the Weston A Price Foundation.
Having followed and read the links, I realise how much this organisation has influenced the thinking of many of the debators and many of the public who seem increasingly to be challenging the healthiness of the vegan/vegetarian way of life.
It’s so true that it’s crucial to know where someone is coming from and what they might have to gain from holding their views before taking them seriously, and also to check their rsearch sources and references well.
Now I realise this,I feel a lot more able to evaluate what the speakers have said.
After reading people who mostly have no expertise compared to some of the other speakers?
will was great,it was nice to hear him.
Sally is too programed,and her vegetarian friends bigest ilness, was the lack of wisdom to be a vegetarian, maybe he showld go and ask same directions from a gorila.
After our first set ot tooth children stops producing rennin,and we do know that no other animal drinks milk after they finnish feeding with their mother,besides,a cow baby also have a diferent digestive system then a person, further more I have helped, healing deseases like asma, breath cancer,and other deasease, were one of the main poison builders was milk, and meat.
Tell me Sally! Wy did we get so dependent on all this things like clothes and so on?
Did you know that we only think with one fifth to one tenth of our brain? and we do not have a brain that is 5 to 10 times biger than a gorila that thinks with all it’s brain,because it does not eat brain congesting foods like meat and milk or eggs. to be honest, if I have my say you would not be be alowd to have babys, or work on the health system. Sorry,but you are a good scavenger,and you dont have any respect for animals at all.
Your notion of health is ridiculous,and you dont have any nature left,but yes you are a good promoter for the drug companies
Manuel what are you on? Not making much sense.
Mr. Manuel, healing people by your way and beliefs is good and i am satisfied to hear about your work. Of course, there are many other people around the world that produce good results in helping people and many times with a different way of yours or other health practitioners. Yes, there are some basic principals about healthy eating, but you can not categorise everything under black or white, according your personal or other’s opinions. All opinions with scientific evidence deserve respect and deserve to be heard. There are many people that long-live with high energy levels and robust, eating meat. On the other hand there are also many who have perfect health, longevity and high energy levels without eating meat. There is no reason for insulting Mrs. Sally or anyone who has a different way of eating or thinking, unless you are the mother of knowledge and the best example of human being.
Personally I thik your way of judging Mrs. Sally does not reflect your reserves of nature left inside you, even if you are not consuming meat. Evaluating humanity of a person from eating habits ….?! Aggressive attitude is a human characteristic even if you dont eat meat and you are the living proof.
Dear Kevin, I believe that the insulting parts of the above post of Mr. Manuel must be removed according to common ethics and your requested rules of politeness.
Thank you.
“Did you know that we only think with one fifth to one tenth of our brain?”
i hear this all the time from people who don’t know biology.
let me ask you this:
which 4/5ths or 9/10ths of your brain would you like me to cut out? cuz you will be fine right?
Sally raised a very important aspect to all of these discussions (although she didn’t say a great deal about it) and that is the SPIRITUAL aspect. So many people make diet and health choices based on seemingly spiritual ideas, environmentalism and loving the earth at one extreme, or religious traditions at the other. Even the age-old arguments about creation/evolution get bandied about. Why? Because we are spiritual beings as well as physical. We are too complex to make any decision or choice without thinking VERY DEEPLY about it. And I think herein lies the problem, people are too quick to jump on a bandwagon (e.g. vegetarianism) for a seemingly good reason (e.g. animal cruelty). In this case, avoiding meat is a political action, not a health choice.
Those who are promoting a meat diet, please answer this question:
How could we produce enough pastured ethical meat for everyone, that doesn’t take as much resources and pollution as a vegan source of protein?
Resources are: land, water.
Pollution: polluted waters, erosion.
Please don’t compare monoculture and huge plantations with small scale animal farming.
Thank you.
Those who are promoting a meat diet, please answer this question:
How could we produce enough pastured ethical meat for everyone, that doesn’t take as much resources and pollution as a vegan source of protein?
Resources are: land, water.
Pollution: polluted waters, erosion.
Please don’t compare monoculture and huge plantations with small scale animal farming.
*******************
One is a social solution
cooking more together and slaugheting the animals in the communities
Decentralistic Idea. Everyone lives in a small community which are connected with each other. The first thing we have to do real good farming like permaculture every where. In the cites. window farming. Then the next step Is to Pot for every community animals there. This are small group which has some few animals, they can decide if they take hem for diary production, meat, or for the children to play with.
Reforest the forest. Let the forest grow back. And let some people live there as caretaker. They tarade some meat out of the forest to the other communities.
Make a counceling with the animals, how they wann a be eaten.
Eat the toxic meat. And get mutated or tollarant to the toxic. Man can handle more toxins than children and woman. So the toxins settlement are done by men and some ressistent woman.
try to farm doves on good food, there a lot of doves there.
Make insect farms and bug farm.
Permaculture.
Clean the earth that there can grow pasture land.
Grow a lot liver and body growing cleaning herbs like dandilion or others to clean the body, so we can eat also the bad meat.
And people have been on the meat-eating bandwagon for how long?
I enjoyed Tuttle’s passion and compassion. And I am learning that there is no wrong way, each person is where they are. I was a lacto ovo vegetarian for 26 years, since age 9. I finally commenced eating meat after numerous latent health issues and I have to say I am healthier since eating meat. But I am blood type O. I am careful with the types of meat I eat, mostly lamb and fish.I think there’s something to the blood type diet? I agree that some people are suited to vegetarian diets, vegan for others and omnivorous for some? I agree with Fallon that there’s a need for raw dairy, but I dont have access to it. My skin and weight are best when I give up dairy.
We all follow our individual beliefs and so we live according to our beliefs and probably the outcomes also result according to our beliefs, thus the huge variety of experience.
Ok, here’s an article that I tried to translate into English about vegan organic farming.
Enjoy:
“Livestock production is not needed – the potentials of vegan food farming
Animal based foods environmental problems has recently been featured in many contexts. On the other hand the consumption is justified by claiming that the Finnish climate conditions, however, is not well suited for the production of vegetarian food. Could it be true that the majority of Finland’s land area suitable only for grass and forage crops?
Vegan organic farming
Food production conditions are certainly different in Finland than in Central Europe. Vegetarian Food production – even totally vegan organic farming – is still feasible to us, and its potentials should be considered.
For example, currently mostly used for feed barley and oats could fit directly to our tables and through versatile processing. Valuable protein diet obtained from indigenous legumes and peas, field beans, industrial hemp and wholegrain cereals. For example, potatoes, root vegetables and herbs can be grown in Lapland, although the production efficiency of the north does not pull any match for the South of Finland.
Animal production in connection with livestock manure is often referred to, like the food chain could not survive without it at all. Animals do not themselves bind any atmospheric nitrogen, but get it from eating the plants. Human nutrition producing fields, fertilization can be used instead of animal manure such as clover, grass or other nitrogen fixation as well as wood ash. Additional nitrogen could also be bound into the earth with the help of farming legumes. (1)
Biological wastes (2) and human droppings could be composted to restore nutrient fields. That is, for example in China there’s a thousands of years of experience in the period. The essence of the Chinese field fertilization has been a subtle plant component utilization. (3)
Organic farming production cycle of grass can be used for biogas production. For example fumigation clover grass residues from fertilizer, the value of which is nitrogenous and better than grass. (4).
Vegan organic farming methods are also crop rotation, planting partners, year-round vegetation, symbiotic ecosystems and cover crops. In addition it’s good to maintain the local species of wild habitats, which operate to discourage pests as protective barriers. Wild trees, pine trees, fruit trees and berry bushes can be planted to create a favourable microclimate. (5)
Too much manure
In its current state, the manure in a specialist agricultural production is a problem rather than a valuable contributor to soil fertility. Animal facilities are not self-sufficient in feed grains. Farms for animal feed imports a lot of grains, soy bean and corn from elsewhere (6, 7), because there are too many animals per surface area. In particular, large animal farms do not have enough arable land to produce all the feed.
When the feed is imported from outside the farms, manure nutrient contained in the above fields of vegetation get too much nutrient easily. In this case, the problem is too much manure vs areas of fields to dump it in. The excess nutrients are washed into waterways. Manure is often affected by overproduction of animal spaces, in particular regional concentration.
Today, manure application limits the amount with legislation and agricultural support through agricultural and environmental authorities, advice and recommendations (9). Environmental conditions, however, allow to spread manure on fields more than is necessary, because the animal farms are not just other options to get rid of the manure. Finnish pig farms and large poultry houses are even the environmental laws of limits are too stringent, so they detach themselves from the agricultural economical support, so that they can continue to over fertilize their fields, for example like in the Netherlands. (10)
Forest land grazing is a rare tale
It has been argued that the vegetarian food advocates do not understand the role of animals in the food chain. Yet it is precisely the basic ecology of the food chain, which takes a large part of the energy content when the feed is to farm animals. (This means in other words that animal production is taking up the biggest part of energy consumption when the feed is fed to the animals instead of to humans directly.)
According to MTT’s research to produce a kilo of pork takes 25-38 times more energy than the meat contains. Plants grown in a certain amount of energy used in the cultivation of crops give back energy content to 2-6-times. (12) An exception to this is in Finland winter season greenhouse vegetable production, which requires a tremendous amount of energy (13).
Ruminant cattle are still less effective even compared to pigs to convert the energy content of feed to animal biomass (14). However, cattle are fed more dry feed compared to pigs. Concentrates feed is still more abundant for dairy cows, for example for high milk production requirements. (15, 16)
It is certainly possible to engage in animal economy, in which the animals – at its best indigenous species – diversify grazing of endangered culture biotope (17). In its current state and on such a huge scale intensive animal production with its outside grazing is not feasible. The cattle get out to graze only a couple of months in a year, and they graze on sown grass which does not bring any biodiversity.
What to do with the surplus farmland?
Four fifths of Finnish arable land produces animal feed (18). Plant based food production would take far less of Finland’s arable area. Excess fields may not be in favour of planted pine and birch, as their re-clearance is expensive. Also, the changing climate may be caused by scarcity of food can quickly become a shortage of spare arable land when needed.
The vacant arable lands that would come from decrease in animals feed production, should be afforested in favour of agroforestry techniques. Agri-environmental and climate impact is reduced effectively by planting at 15-meter intervals from north to south lanes to grow trees and shrubs that provide food, fertilizers and fuels. The remaining fields can continue to grow food or energy crops, such as reed canary grass or hemp (19). Reed canary grass should also increase with cereals as rotational crops, as it improves soil fertility (20).
Farming without fossil fuels
While fossil fuel resources are depleting, the amount of feed produced by area will decrease if the methods of conventional farming use will continue. There are no further reserves of land, the arable land area per capita, on the contrary decreases globally because of erosion, or irrigation and water scarcity. (21) Agriculture in its current trend can not continue, because we will not be able to feed all the people in the future.
The solution is to use the resort biointensive horticulture like vegan farming methods. The needed food for one man – and soil humus maintenance of the necessary organic ingredients – can produce an average yield level of about 3.6 acres per country. 60% of the land area used for grain and seed crops, root vegetables 30% and 10% of vegetable production. Artificial fertilizers should be replaced with compost where all the unusable parts of the plants are to be returned to the soil. Therefore, the majority of the area planted with seed plants, which produce much more carbon-rich biomass calories below. Coal or biomass, rather lignin rich biomass is essential for maintaining soil humus reserves. (22, 23, 24) for this purpose we should take advantage of the trees lignin rich oxalic grains (25).
Biointensive farming methods gives enough land for food production in the future for all people of the world, but also a part can be left to their natural state. Forestry can be combined with the growing use and natural areas so that the end result reminds the forest ecosystem. This is the easiest way to tropical conditions, but grove like forest gardens can also be created in the northern boreal zone. Maintained, berry and mushroom land can be cherished by hundreds of forest management forms and also be a part as one form of forestry. (26)
Lasse Nordlund’s own long time testing shows that five acres is enough land for food production in Northern Finland, for also the mushrooms and berries. This calculation is taken into account for reserve depletion. (27) In Sweden the calculation of the current methods of food production of an omnivore requires 23 acres and 15 acres land vegetarian. Vegans suffice 10 acres. (28) “
This is just one example of how vegan farming could be done. It would of course be even easier to do in a warmer climate.
Thanks, Selina! This is a fantastic resource to help us live more healthfully on this Earth.
Sally, where did you hear of the kangaroo milk? I am Australian, and lived here all my life, I have never heard of this.
And I personally know of a vegan mother, gorgeous woman who has a gorgeous vegan child; outgoing, confident, healthy,engaging..
..factory farms have humane ways of killing? OMG.
As for her story of vegetarians she heard of from dentists where their teeth were rotten, well it only begs the question, what the hell were they being fed by their parents? I think that’s where Kevin was going when he said what if they were doing it wrong. But she didn’t really answer or get what he was saying, I heard Kevin utter something but Kevin!you didn’t push forward with your point…So Sally,what if they were doing it(the vegetarian diet) wrong? You can be labelled a vegetarian and live on junk food..God knows what these people you talk about, were eating and passing onto their babies….
*sigh* You didn’t listen to what she said.
She’s opposed to factory farms. She’s an advocate of pasture-raised animals.
How does Sally Tuttle know what the listeners are saying? Is she assuming all the listeners are vegetarian. Maybe she should find research citing what toxins are found in liver.
Her name is Sally Fallon. The other speaker is Will Tuttle.
I wanted to thank Sally for her talk. I have met and talked with Sally on several occasions and she is a lovely woman who is so passionate about, and dedicated to, what she does.
I also think that it is important to remember what Donna Gates and some of the other speakers said. That we are all not the same. I think Donna called it the principle of uniqueness. Some of us may thrive on vegan diets and some of us may thrive on a meat diet. Some of us may do poorly on a vegan diet and some may do poorly on a meat diet. But we should respect each other for those differences.
Did paleo man use computers? Interesting that as soon as a concept becomes inconvenient for people it is completely disregarded, but when it justifies an action it is preached as the gospel.
No he didn’t use computers but if they were available he sure would have used them.
He probably also raped and exploited women…Does this make it okay too?
I don’t care what Sally Fallon says, if you eat a balanced vegan diet, not a “junk food” vegan diet, you will thrive and be the healthiest you can ever be. I have been in the nursing field for 34 years and have seen the RAVAGES that the SAD diet has upon the body. Will Tuttle is 100% correct of everything he speaks about. The earth is on a downhill spiral, and if you cannot look around and see this you are blind and ignorant. Eating animals is a violent act, to the animal toward the environment and to our body. If you eat animal products you will eventually have all the health problems almost what every American gets, heart disease, diabetes and cancer,..it is cause and effect. That is a FACT…Veganism will save the world and yourself. I have been a healthy vegan for 15 years. I do not have to see a doctor, and my kids are the healthiest of any child I know. Go vegan.
Meat eating animals, with guts similar to ours, killed other animals to survive, even chimps and gorillas, though plant eaters do consume insects, after all, they don’t wash their veggies before ‘tearing’ into them. If anyone can show the gut, teeth, and inclination not to go omnivore, please, instruct me. I tried vegetarian for my family and I for a month and our bodies weren’t being nourished, and it was especially critical with my son and I. Our nostrils developed split in the nostril opening and disappeared within a month after going back of meat, etc. My son, who was six, also went from a thriving young warrior type to being afraid of any boy who saw weakness in him. That was the straw that caused me to change back, when he ran in the house from a boy his same age and size. Aside from that, this is healthy, but it seems many are becoming more and more entrenched. Weston Price, for ten years tried to find one healthy Vegan and vegetarian tribe, and was disappointed that he never did. One came close, eating meat only once a week but eggs, milk throughout the week. Being in the health food business and dealing with customers and their customers on a daily basis, I did find occasional health in vegetarians, but each of them were aggressive and angry far too often, it was a calm meat eater dealing with angry vegetarians, I simply couldn’t understand why they acted like that then, but now it’s fairly apparent, or at least in my opinion, they were wanting to eat what their body demanded but their subconscious was continually playing cop and saying, “No, no, naughty naughty, don’t eat meat, it means something died and you don’t want to be an accessory to killing an animal, etc.” What about eggs, if left alone they will become chicks, if fertile, and then there’s cow milk, robbing the calves of their milk, or making the cows work overtime to supply us our daily allotment.
Who is right, who is wrong? Does it matter? Eat what you feel inclined to eat with one exception, stay away from sugars, sodas, pesticide laden foods, growth hormaone laden, stale, inorganic, processed junk, fast food, fruit year round, pasteurized milk and cheese, fruit juices which are simply liquid sugar, and, well, you get the point. What’s left to eat? Whatever is left is obviously good stuff, but to divide it into all vegetable/fruit and all meat is plain silly and a waste of time. If one eats the good stuff and has a great desire for a glob or raw butter on his steak or broccoli, go for it. How anyone can eat broccoli without something on it is a mystery and to eat such goitrogen food raw is harmful, eventually but quick regarding digestion. The same with many seeds, fruits, vegetables and so forth, but does such adversity exist in the animal foods? I don’t think so, unless commercial junk, but grass fed and pastured, etc., that’s the stuff we may well have been dssigned by nature, remember her, Mother Nature, does anyone really believe since we’re animals we would suddenly thrive on plant foods made for ruminants. Look at the gut, the teeth, the nature of humans and nothing more. One of the longest lived humans never ate meat and the last time interviewed was 108 years old. However, he was Vegan from the year four years old, few Vegans or vegetarians live past 100. My uncle was 100 years and seven days and he was a meat eater his entire life, my mother was 94 and a meat eater all her live and died from osteoporosis of the hip and said, like George Bernard Shaw when he broke his hip from a fall from an apple tree, while he was in his 90′s, who claimed to be a vegetarian but his cook said she sneaked in some meat every now and then. Both, Shaw and my mother, said nuts to this when they were told they’d never walk again. In three days my mother was gone, and in one week Shaw was gone. However, this is not about whether we live to one hundred years but that we love living while we live, even if for 40 years. I met an Indian who was dying who said he didn’t mind, he said he had many women and that made me him happy and by having many women he realize his life was a good life. Besides, we all die so isn’t it smart to eat well, live fully and let the chps fall where they may, and like the Indian, make love not war.
That’s why you avoid ANY animal products and avoid any intentional killing of sentient beings.
And I’m a firm believer of the “if it didn’t work for you, you weren’t planning it properly” vegan group. People like you are quick to blame anyone but yourselves…
Someone please change the title of this debate. From “Great Health” to “Great Ecology”.
When we start using knowledge and technology for feeding humans properly and live with higher efficiency, all problems can be solved. This can be achieved only when money are not the aim in life.
An ecological quiz now:
US population in 2010 was 308.745.538 which means less than 5 % of worldwide population.
Can anyone please answer me now, on how this 5% of the total, consumes about a quarter of the world’s fossil fuel resources — burning up nearly 25% of the coal, 26% of the oil and 27% of the world’s natural gas?
Or how in 2003, the U.S. had more private cars than licensed drivers compared to every other country in the world? (fancy sport vehicles were best sellers.)
Or how new houses in the U.S. were 38% bigger in 2002 than in 1975, despite having fewer people per household on average?
Or why we are still using fossil fuel and nuclear resources for producing energy?
We don’t know how to produce clear energy? Why? Because first we spend human lives and resources (with wars), to gain acess to all remaining fossil fuel reserves and then force societies to use them until the last drop. Not untill then, they will bring to public, a way of producing energy that will be profitable for their pockets.
Until we start sabotaging all this nonsense, sorry but I am heading to my kitchen to eat a leaver. Charge me !!
(Selina, nothing personal, really.)
What has diet have to do with any of those problems you just listed?
Are you justifying you eating a piece of liver with what?
I don’t understand how your reply has anything to do what I wrote here.
Probably because Americans eat the most animal products, which requires intense amounts of fossil fuels?
Sally, really…no suffering of animals at the hands of man in our society??? Did you ever see videos of slaughterhouses???? These are all COMMON PRACTICE… So did you?? Open your eyes, please and maybe your heart will open..
You didn’t listen to what she said.
She said she’s opposed to conventional slaughterhouses. She’s an advocate of pastured (aka “compassionately raised”) meat.
Sally should go and visit a slaughter house.
If she hasn’t done that already. If she has and still think it is totally humane… I would be scared to meet her on the street.
Sally is sending such dangerous messages..I can’t believe what I am hearing…Vegans shouldn’t have kids??? omg
What an uncompassionate, heartless uneducated individual. She needs to stand on a slaughterhouse line to see where her “needed meat” comes from !!!!
She never said it was humane, she just said it wasn’t worse then being killed by a predator in nature. How come you twist and turns thing so much? Paintign a ghost on the wall and attack it, makes you feel better?
Will was right, it may serve us to broaden our perspective. If we step back far enough, we can get beyond all of this dualism and there would be no debate.
“Modern Dualism
Digging deeper, the root of this fear, I think, lies in our culture’s dualistic separation of body and soul, matter and spirit, man and nature. The scientific legacy of Newton and Descartes holds that we are finite, separate beings; that life and its events are accidental; that the workings of life and the universe may be wholly explained in terms of objective laws applied to inanimate, elemental parts; and therefore, that meaning is a delusion and God a projection of our wishful thinking. If materiality is all there is, and if life is without real purpose, then of course death is the ultimate calamity.
Curiously, the religious legacy of Newton and Descartes is not all that different. When religion abdicated the explanation of “how the world works”–cosmology–to physics, it retreated to the realm of the non-worldly. Spirit became the opposite of matter, something elevated and separate. It did not matter too much what you did in the world of matter, it was unimportant, so long as your (immaterial) “soul” were saved. Under a dualistic view of spirituality, living right as a being of flesh and blood, in the world of matter, becomes less important. Human life becomes a temporary excursion, an inconsequential distraction from the eternal life of the spirit.
Other cultures, more ancient and wiser cultures, did not see it like this. They believed in a sacred world, of matter infused with spirit. Animism, we call it, the belief that all things are possessed of a soul. Even this definition betrays our dualistic presumptions. Perhaps a better definition would be that all things are soul. If all things are soul, then life in the flesh, in the material world, is sacred. These cultures also believed in fate, the futility of trying to live past one’s time. To live rightly in the time allotted is then a matter of paramount importance, and life a sacred journey.
When death itself, rather than a life wrongly lived, is the ultimate calamity, it is easy to see why an ethical person would choose vegetarianism. To deprive a creature of life is the ultimate crime, especially in the context of a society that values safety over fun and security over the inherent risk of creativity. When meaning is a delusion, then ego–the self’s internal representation of itself in relation to not-self–is all there is. Death is never right, part of a larger harmony, a larger purpose, a divine tapestry, because there is no divine tapestry; the universe is impersonal, mechanical and soulless.”
Cheers!
Interesting, and I agree.
Very interesting.
The only thing that bothers me is the pain and suffering that an animal is in when it dies. I have no problem accepting that all life is as sacred as everything else, and therefore eating meat is no different to eating vegetables, but what about the aspect of suffering??? I have heard of The Secret Life of Plants and I am very sympathetic to this argument, I am myself a conscientious meat eater, but you will have a tough job persuading me that plants suffer equally when they are ‘killed’.
I would be interested to hear peoples thoughts on this matter.
Cheers,
James.
Wow! With due respect Will Tuttle had a boring interview. Let’s talk nutrition, forget the animals or the planet. I feel sorry for Sally Fallon. She contradicted herself all the way through this interview. She needs to get her facts right.
I am a “vegan” (I guess) but I do not care about the philosophy. Call me selfish. I am on it for health reasons – some very unique to me. I also agree that meat is beneficial, but not as a main source of your calories. In general I do not think folks should be vegans, good meat is a great addition to a healthy diet (but not in excess or poor quality).
If you’re a vegan advocating meat consumption you are not a vegan…Sorry to burst your bubble…
The most conscious people I know aren’t concerned about what they eat, for moral or health reasons, and they are very grateful, healthy, happy and loving and do not see death as a bad thing. Such freedom, contentment and joy!
Sounds like you know few conscious people…
Sally Fallon, Weston Price and the Weston Price Foundation’s claims about achieving good health on a diet rich in saturated fat are entirely without substance or merit. Weston Price himself did not painstakingly document the lifespan of these people; he was a dentist who just made a quick visit and jumped to simplistic conclusions claiming people were healthy by looking at their teeth. He ignored life expectancy, infant mortality, high rate of infection and many other confounding variables. Weston Price did not grasp the complexity of multi-factorial causation and this tradition is continued by his followers today. This in no way dismisses or makes less of the importance of Price’s criticism of the dangers of sugar and other processed foods modern societies eat.
And maybe eating lots of wild meats and natural vegetation, without exposure to modern processed foods may offer a better health outcome than a modern American eating even less produce, and more processed foods, (which may be even worse) but we don’t purchase a car by comparing it to a junkyard wreck, we want to know what is best. Fortunately, we actually know that eating a higher percentage of vegetables, legumes, fruit, and raw nuts and seeds in a diet (and much less animal products) can offer a profound longevity advantage due to a broad symphony of life-extending phytochemical nutrients. Meet is not bad, bud we must offer recommendations based on a broad overview of all the evidence. The evidence here is overwhelming; and for those who want maximum control of their health destiny one’s dietary choices should not be based on politics, ego, or a belief system.
Can Dr. Tuttle provide a source where I can find the societies that lived for hundreds of years on a vegan diet cuz i never found one. Also, I wish he would have talked about the health aspect, that’s what I tuned in for, not the religious aspect.
the Vedic Culture which is now India has persevered for many thousands of years; it is basically vegetarian… but some are vegan… etc… i think i posted on this someplace here maybe? currently India has 70% of all vegetarians on earth…
but the main point is that Vedic Knowledge of Spiritually which thrived in ancient times… has survived the onslaught of Alexander the great, the Mongols, Islam, Christianity, and the current westernization…
so while McDonalds is aggressively spreading its poison leading to self-destruction all over the world… the universal eternal vedic knowledge is spreading peacefully gently via relaxation yoga, meditation, vegetarianism, self-introspection, inquiry and awakening to our true inner essence of who we are… satsangs… etc
Dr Will’s message is profound and i totally agree with it… he didn’t have to talk about nutrition because as he said Dr Fuhrman and Dr Goldhamer already did an excellent job… read their books, watch youtube… etc
love and light to all… to those who praise me and to those who blame me… such is the nature of world… but underneath it all is pure unconditional love… seek and ye shall find…
India has one of the highest rates of malnutrition in the world.
this may be true for many reasons, one being they do not follow the high nutrient diet that Dr Fuhrman and others are teaching… so far this knowledge is available for only few here on this forum etc… you are being offered a gift of immense value… will you take it?
but you are missing the bigger point… their vedic spiritual knowledge which is more important than diet has survived for tens of thousands of years…
the question is will the overindulgent overfed undernourished western civilization wake up… see its folly… make amends… or perish and take the whole world with it…
the solution is take India’s Vedic knowledge, awaken to our inner essence of who we really are, implement transition from eating animals to a plant based diet… and the tweek it to perfcetion via Dr Fuhrman’s Eat To Live approach… and that will be our repayment gift and gratitude to India… if you follow…
some want to talk about nutrition only, factually… scientifically…
who among us know true honest science when we see it? and distinguish it from BS pseudo-science… some do
who among us know a story is true, when we hear it? and distinguish it from BS bought and paid for by some powerful special interest group like tobacco, dairy, cattle and others… some do
obviously, it comes down to POV and everyone is entitled to their unique POV…
but still, there are known guiding principles of life and nutrition alone does not determine the health of body and mind… and life is more than just good or bad nutrition…
we all have heard…
1) of the scientific principle that “for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction”
2) of the spiritual principle of “karma”
3) of the religious “golden rule”
4) of the philosophical or cultural “rule of reciprocity”
all of these are the same and simply common sense… “what we do to others, mother nature will make sure, sooner or later, is done to us”
the mistake, or wishful thinking, of some is in thinking that the poor defenseless animals cannot retaliate… this is true… but Mother Nature is all powerful… and sooner or later resorts to making a species extinct according to the golden rule etc…
right now, we are living in an extraordinary period in time, where many are awakening to our inner true essence as spiritual beings primarily and only secondarily as bodies-minds
that is the message Dr Will is trying to get across… and that is the only way the human species will survive… evolve in consciousness or perish is not just some philosophical hypothesis… see top scientists discuss some real honest science on this (nice videos)
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
including Dr Fuhrman, Dr Esselstyn, Dr Brown and other esteemed honest conscientious brilliant scientists and pragmatists
the choice is ours…all of us need to do some more homework and maybe read some relevant books:
“The Pleasure Trap” by Alan Goldhamer
“Eat To Live” Joel Fuhrman
“The World Peace Diet – Eating For Spiritual Health And Social Harmony” By Will Tuttle, Ph.D.
http://worldpeacediet.org/
“Be Here Now” Ram Das
“The Power of Now” Eckhart Tolle
look at this amazing video; how healthy John Robbins is at an elderly age; and compare it with Sally’s picture not quite so old and yet so unhealthy looking; a picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nkb9iX652yE
and book “Diet for a New America” by John Robbins who gave up his Baskin & Robbins inheritance for TRUTH
let me finish with a true story( check it out yourself) Peace Pilgrim attained perfect health of body-mind-spirit… not with a diet… but by committing 15 years of her life totally to selfless-service helping others without any motive of reward… then she spend 28 years walking and talking about peace… without any possessions… without ever asking for food she was always provided… evetually she did become a vegetarian and fasted for 40 days…
God is Love
and both are the highest truth
and that is also our true inner essence
which was, is, and will be with us forever
bodies are changeable and will come and go… some healthy some unhealthy…
but Truth, Love, God is forever in the present NOW
“The Power of Now” Eckhart Tolle
love to all… to those who praise me and those that blame me… love & light
link to Peace Pilgrim
http://www.peacepilgrim.org
many nice videos some short some long
can be watched for free online
also can request book for free
donate if you want, there is no arm twisting
Mario Coss said:If you knew any science at all, you would know that glutathione is produced inside cells and stays there. There are no glutathione receptors, so we have no way of taking it orally and expecting it to reach the cells.
This is not true,there is a glutathione that can be taken orally,and passes through the blood brain barrier of the cell and then boosts our own cells to produce glutathione. This is a patented product and has been available for about 3 years now.
I enjoyed both interviews and feel there is much wisdom to gain from both Mr. Tuttle and Sally Fallon. I’m astounded and saddened by all the hostile comments on this post accusing Sally Fallon and Weston A Price Foundation of inaccurate, unresearched, contradictory information. Spend a few years actually reading everything done by Weston A. Price and all the studies and info to be found at http://www.westonaprice.org and then make a decision based on something other than knee jerk reaction. As Mr. Tuttle said, “Compassion anywhere is good for everyone, everywhere.”
Dear Cathy, with your broad mindedness, perhaps you may be interested in this: thank you…
world top experts on nutritional science & environment spoke at a conference last Nov 3 2010 to address the issues of the present state of health of humanity and mother earth… and its survival :
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
if the human species is removed from planet earth, all the species will rebound and thrive… the sky. earth, water, plants, animals all will become free of pollution and toxins…
if enough species are removed which man is doing… in a brutal, violent, murderous sort of way… humanity will not survive…
compassion for all… means first of all… all the innivce
compassion for all… first of all…
means compassion for all the innocent animals which we do not need to eat for any reason at this time on planet earth…
Eskimos are no longer isolated… they have a choice also… even some current day Mongols in harsh climates are becoming vegetarians and some vegan…
of course, there can always be some exceptions in unusual circumstances…
compassion toward WAPF means, in no uncertain terms telling them they are misguided… knowingly or unknowingly… it is folly to disregard the consensus of current credible nutritional science…
http://www.worldpreservationfoundation.org/events.php
for understanding compassion at its root level deep within the silence of ours hearts, investigate: http://www.mooji.org http://www.amma.org
thank you very much… love & light,
anatol
perhaps deep understanding and feeling compassion without spirituality is not possible…
here is a website dedicated to saving planet earth via compassion for all, vegetarianism, spirituality and pragmatic science… many videos etc by top experts in all fields nutrition, science, spirituality, engineering, psychology, religion, etc
http://suprememastertv.com/
enjoy and grow in love light compassion
Anatol,
There are many deeply spiritual people who have traditionally consumed meat. Some of these people appear to me to actually have the closest connection to nature. These include Native American Indian and Maori among many many others. It would appear grossly arrogant to believe that vegetarianism is a pre-requisite to a spiritual life.
James.
that was the past…
now if we continue to eat animals…
please do not call it meat…
people are eating animals…
i never said vegetarianism was prerequisite for spirituality…
and you are right about the past
so you projection of arrogance is unwarranted…
but for the present times,
we need both spirituality and vegetarianism to save human species from extinction…
and spirituality is more important of the two… to realize what we must do and to have the strength to do it…
thanks for question
Beautifully said, Anatol. Spirituality is reflected in actions, not just verbalizations, as you point out. And SMTV is wonderful.
Anatol,
I never called you arrogant! I said the belief that vegetarianism is a prerequite to spirituality would be arrogant. No projections from me!
Native cultures, tribes and indigenous people are not something of the past even though western culture has done its best to make them extinct. There are hundreds of thousands of native people who still consume meat as part of their indigenous culture and spiritual beliefs.
I agree, spirituality is the most important aspect. But from a place of inclusiveness, not dogmatically dictating what other people need to eat to save the world.
Blessings,
James
Will Tuttle makes some good points.
But I find his moralizing interesting considering he doesn’t care about destroying the Earth’s ozone layer with his jet-setting back and forth to his home in Vilcabamba, Ecuador. He also obviously doesn’t mind polluting the environment here by driving around in an RV.
If he sailed to Ecuador and peddled around America it would then fit better with his philosophy.
Thomas, you make and interesting point…
but some of your standards for him are a lot tougher… then what he is asking from us… which is a lot easier and common sense and backed up by credible current nutritional science…
and good for everyone, us, planet earth, innocent animals… and could save human species from extinction…
thanks
Seeing as meat production causes between 18-50% of GHG emissions I think what Tuttle is doing is a drop in the pond and an action that can be justified by the good he hopefully promotes!
Will Tuttle – too much rambling! there is such a limited time to speak, and these speakers have plenty of time to consider what they want to say. Tuttle needs to get over his story and on to data (empirical and otherwise) that addresses the topic at hand.
Dr Will, bless his heart, spoke what is most important for the survival of human species on planet earth… spiritual evolutuon and awakening to our true inner assence of who we really are beyond body-mind…
as far as empirical data on nutritional science, he recommended Dr Fuhrman and Dr Goldhamer two of the best experts in the field…
i have been a relatively healthy and good vegan for 40 years… and last 9 years on Dr Fuhrman’s “eat to love” nutritarian lifestyle…
my POV is that spirituality is most important primarily and then secondarily we take care of body-mind without obsessing about it
best nutritional science identifies:
1) foods that nourish, heal and reverse disease…
lots of greens, variety of other veggies and fruit, seeds, nuts, legumes, and few select whole grains( sprouted or very lightly processed or well cooked );
at least 50% raw;
this is basic then get tested for any deficiencies especially D, B12, DHA, Taurine and maybe amino acid profile if not thriving; these deficiencies can usually be easily corrected with a few supplements
2) foods that are causing obesity and many current diseases heart cancer diabetes immune psychological and many others…
animals, sugars, salt, all extracted liquid oils, processed & over-processed grains, alcohol, dairy, and of course all the prepared-over-processed meals with all sort of unnecessary additives
3) fish is in a category all by itself… wild caught sardines and salmon have the DHA and can be useful in serious deficiencies of DHA… but all fish, farmed or wild, is not free from toxins… there is a DHA supplement from algae… some vegans do get DHA deficiencies if really healthy and their bodies produces its own…
Finally, even the best diet cannot guarantee freedom from all deficiencies… freedom from all toxins in the polluted environment we live in… that is why tons of GREENS is important because these detox the body on a continuous daily basis… and get tested once in a while…
or be like Peace Pilgrim, commit your life totally to selfless service, and enjoy perfect health as a grace from God…
Correction:
some vegans do NOT get DHA deficiencies if really healthy and their bodies produces its own…
Thanks for having Will!! Great talk; I might skip listening to Sally after reading the comments.
Thank you, Kevin, for recognizing the wisdom and importance of what Will Tuttle had to say and just standing back and letting him say it. We are so much more than what we eat.
I listened to Dr. Tuttle and now am listening to Sally Fallon. I was a vegan all of my 20′s and learned to cook and was extremely healthy. I have goats now and chickens and garden so try to “live off the land” in an honorable and honoring way. I just feel so offended by Fallon’s self-righteous, rigid, condescending air. I feel so poisoned by her. What we know is that everything, all health, depends on our spiritual well-being and that is the truth that Dr. Tuttle spoke to. Poor Sally Fallon appears to have too little spiritual life or any real wisdom to inform her. She is so afraid of “depriving” herself that she has no empathy for anything but humans.
How can we save the recording???
Dr. Tuttle is absolutely incredible and I want to save this, absolutely precious information!!!!
Thank you Kevin for all these debates you are amazing for this.
You can either use a tape recorder or you can purchase the CDs from Kevin. See the ad in the upper right-hand corner of this page.
The one that says:
“Like these calls?
Special event pricing”
Fallon talks and talks about all these animal products but the source that is most readily available comes from industrial production,never mentions the GMO problem in the food supply nor the terrible health issues that arise from the way animals are fed and slaughtered. I think she is some kind of meat industry shill.
This has been an intensive week, with lots of info. Many speakers with different views that has been able to talk uninterrupted and elaborate their specific view and philosophy.
The conclusion of this: Everybody have good points. Everybody are right…
Witch is a bit funny, since people are so eager to put labels on everything!
This is the big teaching of this event, I think!
There is no black or white – there is no one truth.
The problem for many will be how to deal with this info. What to eat now when they no longer can stick to one label 100% and claim to have the “one big truth”?
For me personally it has been a revival of the reasons for me to go green/raw in the first place. Witch feels valuable and good. Thanks for that!
I have never been able to fit under any label. I have been eating raw, but since I live up north I realize this is not the best diet for this zone. There was a reason people where hunters when they moved here… also I prefer to eat an occasional egg or fat fish now and then instead of pills…
Question is how to label me?
I am playing with “antrophosophical rawfooder”, since the antropo
Now when we all realise there is no black or white, this feels like a good base for the next step: The Debate, where the experts are actually challenged!
Now would be a good time to get all the answers to all the questions that these interviews have raised: What does Vitalis think of accumulating pesticides? What do the vegans think of the shipping of fruits around the world? What is the deal with eggs – egg yolks or whole eggs? Raw or cooked? Why? Because of what?
Maybe they themselves would like to answer back to each other in a “second round”, since they are so clearly opposing?
Second question is what to call oneself.
I didn’t feel Tuttle was arrogant, I was relieved that someone was finally being holistic. Thank you
A good study of the soy situation can be found at the Cornucopia web site. It’s called “Behind the Bean” and reports such information as the switching of Chinese soy beans for American organic beans by the corporation that bought the Silk soymilk company.
It’s at:
http://www.cornucopia.org/2009/05/soy-report-and-scorecard/
What Dr Tuttle spoke about is the absolute truth. Our earth is in trouble, largely due to animal agriculture and our societies quest to eat meat and processed foods.Most meat eaters have no idea, or would refuse to watch a gruesome video from a slaughterhouse to see exactly where their steak came from. They are afraid to watch it, because then it might make them feel they have to change their diet. As Dr Tuttle said, people are programmed since childhood to eat a certain way, and most of the time it is meat, dairy and eggs. It is time for an awakening and time to live with kindness and compassion for all beings. Peace begins on your plate. Health does too with plant based nutrition..
If you purchase organic food at a grocery store in the USA, you should check out the pdf file charts on this page to see who now owns each brand. There has been quite a consolidation of organic food producers by the major SAD food corporations.
http://www.cornucopia.org/who-owns-organic/
I have always been impressed with Sally Fallon and the Weston Price Foundation. Anyone who bashes them doesn’t understand them or the research done by Weston Price. He didn’t just do a quick visit and take pictures of the people’s teeth. He lived with them for a while and studied what they ate and sent samples back to the states for lab testing to see what nutrients were in the foods. He knew they had eaten this way for many generations because customs are passed down and people lived in isolated areas where they thrived on native traditional foods.
He observed them enough to see that people that left their tribes to live some place else, (being exposed to modern foods) began coming down with the modern diseases of our times plus seeing their off springs were not as healthy but when they returned to their natural native foods the health returned.
I am impressed with the world wide organization that has taken off with chapters spreading. I am thankful that she leads an organization that sticks up for our food rights politically. Most people are unaware about our food freedoms that are being taken away by our government and how cozy they are with industrial farming.
People here are complaining about her stance on soy saying that Asian people ate it with great health. I have read that traditional Asian people ate fermented soy for the most part which changes it’s structure. And when they ate soy it was in small amounts not being treated like a processed meat replacement. Plus most soy today is genetically modified. Yes the soy industry has taken it’s toll on our health including a campaign against healthy tropical oils. Now soy oil is in tons of our processed foods. To learn more about soy read “The Whole Soy Truth”.
As far as the slaughtering of animals. I do think Sally was a little insensitive to this issue. Her point was that when an animal dies in the wild it suffers more than when it is killed quickly at a slaughter house. But her point is somewhat lost when it is revealed that slaughterhouses are not as humane as they could be and sometimes animal do suffer. It is my belief that when you buy meat from ethical farmers with grass fed beef etc that they make sure the animals are treated humanly since that goes along with how they lived their lives. It is a good question to ask when finding healthy meat sources. I think Sally should have pointed this out. If you don’t want to support industrial slaughter houses……don’t buy industrial meat.
People here a complaining that she doesn’t have science to back up her statements but if you go to the Weston Price Foundation website you will find it there.
I personally just think it makes sense to eat what we ate before all the diseases set in. Before the age of farming. That is how we thrived for millions of years.
Which was eating thousands of types of vegetables…I think monoculture is destroying that concept though…
This has been an intensive and interesting week. Much info, and lots to think about. All the speakers have been able to state their point of view uninterrupted and unchallenged.
Conclusion: There is no black or white – everybody have good points, and everybody are right.
Maybe that is how this event will be remembered.
And maybe that is a good thing, since many listeners have been forced to see “the other side” and question their own point of view.
People are so eager to put labels on everything so this might have been a good experience in crushing some dogma.
For me personally it has also been a good revival of the reasons to why I went green/raw, so thanks for that!
Now we sit here with a lot of views and a lot of questions. We got a lot of theories and viewpoints, but now way of value them.
Now, when people might have mellowed down, and seen the good points from “the other side”, would be a good time fore an actual debate between all the experts!
So that they could challenge each other, and we in fact would be able to hear if their statements would hold (for us) if questioned.
Maybe they would like to answer back to some of the opposing views themselves, in a “round 2″ of this event?
I thank you for the initiative, and look forward to the continue!
Also, on a tech note: I notised todays show was in mp3. Why not do it all as mp3, since I understand many have had problems with the format? Just unnecessary waste of bandwidth with video format when there are only stills…
Who will speak for the vegetables? Have any of you read “The Secret Life of Plants”? Carrots are yanked out of the earth where they live, and are peeled, cut or crushed, tomatoes are pulled off the mother plant that nourishes and sliced or chopped, cabbage is severed from its own root and shredded. Does anyone hear their screams? Electronic meters have measured the screams of all vegetables, and they start reacting when you walk into the room with a knife! They know you will hurt them and kill them.
If humans are going to eat anything, we have to thank and bless it for living to be our food. This is the only responsible way to harvest or prepare or eat any type of food.
Then, it doesn’t matter what you eat, but be assured that if you don’t honor it and thank it, you are a butcher and a murderer who does not hear the life in what you eat.
I eat local vegetables and meat that are cared for by me or a friend with a farm. I know where my meat comes from and how the animals were cared for. I thank them for coming to be my food.
My freezer is full of my own home-grown ducks, and when we butchered them, we held them and said, “Thank you for coming to be my food. Now, fly free of this body, and become a Canadian Goose who flies free!” Within two years, a couple of Canadian Geese with 7 Goslings came into our backyard, and raised their Goslings here! I watched the parent Geese teach their youngsters how to fly, and then they all left.
Life, my friends, is a Consciousness living in ALL, from the ducks to the cabbage.
Yup…that’s why you wouldn’t show your child an image/video of an animal being brutalized, but cutting up a vegetable elicits no such response…
No, I wouldn’t show videos. But life isn’t a video. Life is the real experience of taking care of what is valuable to you and your family. Biodynamic farming is healthy and meaningful to everyone in the family. We all learn deep respect by living biodynamically. A beautifully grown vegetable is hard to cut up and crush, too. Every plant and vegetable has its own blood. You still have to destroy it and masticate it to eat. But you have destroyed it, and if it elicits no response…. then, maybe, you are not very conscious. Look deeper.
**********RECORDING STOPPED!!!**********RECORDING STOPPED!!!*********RECORDING STOPPED!!!********
I wanted to gather whatever information I could from listening to ALL participants and then evaluate the potential benefits for myself. HOWEVER, I am now on plan B. You see as Mr. Tuttle started up his SECOND UNNECESSARILY GRAPHIC (and clearly IMO included for sensational purposes only)story about killing a cow, I had to disconnect. Now I will never know what potentially beneficial information he had to share because of this VERY, VERY distasteful APPROACH.
What if my younger kids had been listening in on the call with me? Was his presentation appropriate for ALL audiences? I am a HUGE proponent of animal rights/humane animal treatment and I support it with my actions as well as my pocketbook daily! Unfortunately, Mr. Tuttle’s approach is almost as DISTASTEFUL as the inhumane treatment he narrates. He seems to believe that people respond only to manipulation and sensationalism rather than respect and valid arguments. I’m not sure one can reconcile your approach with what you preach Mr. Tuttle.
I’m pretty disappointed right now. Kevin, I think since these recordings were really not LIVE that you may have included some kind of warning with this one knowing what was going to be said.
Glad this came toward the end of the series because I am so turned off at this moment that I’m not sure I’ll find the motivation to return to the GHD’s final episodes…
Signed,
EXTREMELY DISAPPOINTED
Grow up. If your kids have ever watched TV they bear witness to acts much worse than what was described. The act of killing a cow was to give the audience a context as to why he became a vegan. It was not sensationalized and was appropriate to his story. If you had finished listening you would have seen that incident was part of his own personal evolution and is what led to him writing the world peace diet. A lesson that may have benefited your children. I will continue to eat meat, however I do respect his opinion and the circumstances which led him to make his vegan lifestyle choice.
***To Christian(?)***
I understand well that Mr. Tuttle was speaking from a personal POV (that’s what ALL of the speakers spoke from—Right?)—and was describing how he got to where he is now. However, ANY intelligent human being can CHOOSE to describe an unpleasant event without sensationalizing it which is what was done with the clear intent to manipulate through the natural reaction I hope we ALL would have to the event described. Mr. T, however, said he in fact did NOT have any such reaction at that time! (That, in itself, is very, very hard for me to comprehend.)
FYI I do not CHOOSE that my young children nor any in my care view images/stories with the graphic violence you assume the entire population consumes. I don’t choose it for myself either.
If I need to “grow up” because I don’t choose to “eat” the crap that is pervasive in society today then I guess I’ll stay a babe! Btw, I think many people are here on the calls because they don’t choose to eat the junk that passes for “food” in society today either. Yes, I am speaking literally AND figuratively.
I don’t know from your post if you are a vegan, a vegetarian or a meat-eater. If you do happen to be a meat-eater, I have one question: do you feed your children meat? If so, you will allow them to eat the proceeds of killing a cow but you will not allow them to hear how that meat gets onto their plate? If they are going to eat it, they should at least understand where it comes from. If you are a vegan/vegetarian, I also think it is important for your children to understand so that they understand why they are not eating meat but their friends do.
Kevin, I think it’s unfair of you to only post these interviews for a day then remove them and change lots of money for them. I realize at a conference we’d be charged money but that is for space and more. I really wish you would consider charging a more reasonable price for buying the interviews or replaying them again for people who have been strapped for time or had computer issues.
Hey Bitt, thanks for your comments here. This event is more expensive than you may think to put together. Web development, organization, three months of paying our team, promotional materials, etc. If you were to go to an event like this live (which would never exist because of the subject!), you would pay $100′s of dollars, not just on the entrance fee, but the hotel, plane flight and meals. I feel we’ve given everyone a very fair system that allows each individual to be able to do what they can to have access to this information.
For the two calls that we had technical issues with we left up for 72 hours, which I feel is fair to everyone who may have been inconvenienced, but not long enough to upset those who paid for the program.
Live Awesome!
Kev
Hi, I have really enjoyed this health debate, what I got out of it is, stay away from packaged and processed food, eat grass fed animal met, natural fed fish, a large variety of fruit and veg also nuts and seeds. I have used the Gerson way of cooking veg, very slowly, on low heat, no water or very little. Veg maintain more flavor and the fiber is much softer and more gentle on the digestive system. No nutrition is lost this way. Because our soil is so depleted of nutrition, we also need to juice a lot of our fruit and green veg. Sally Fallon mentioned drinking raw milk, we have forgotten what real milk tastes like. I liked what Donna Gates said about fermented foods as well, kefir makes vitamin B12 and is so good for our digestion. Can’t wait to hear from Charlotte Gerson.
I’ve been enjoying the debate tememdously; however, when I tried to listen to Will Tuttle (several times), it kept timing out on me and I couldn’t listent to anything past 21min and 26 sec.!…help. I would really like to finish listening to the debate.
Fran
All of the debates have raised valid ideas, solid reasoning and scientific evidence to support their claims. Amazing information. I conclude there really is no right or wrong way to eat. Vegetarianism/veganism appears to support spirituality and awakening. Animal products appear to support fertility and reproduction. Eat the food that supports your goals. Let others eat the foods that support their goals. This is how we bridge the gap and bring people together.
Kev, thanks for you and your team’s hard work and thank you for giving all of these different personalities with their different perspectives and knowledge a chance to speak to a very wide and interested audience. I hope that, in general, we are all collectively benefiting from this. I am very grateful.
Also, I appreciate the respectful and encouraging way you’ve let Sally Fallon speak despite that you personally may deeply disagree with her in many ways. Bravo, this is a tribute to your character and we all stand to grow by your example.
I enjoyed listening to both of these rather contrasting speakers. I think they both had particular wisdom to add. For me neither spoke the exact gospel for my life because I am different! Imagine! But listening enlightened me in new ways through the exposure of new ideas and also solidified my own personal truths. When I think by the end of this I will have spent 16+ hours growing and developing my path, I am really so grateful. THANK YOU AGAIN!!
I didn’t really like the whole discussion about soy being fed the people in prison. Of course their going to be sick if that takes up 70% of all their diet….not to mention it’s probably all genetically modified and has msg and all that other shit in it. Moderation isn’t being talked about and that’s what it’s all about. It’s great to be aware and have compassion for these animals but I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone to be consuming it every single day….just like you don’t have potatoes every single day…or beans…every single day….. I like how Will talked about having compassion and respecting the animals..that makes sense to me. I eat some fish every once in a while but only if I can catch it and kill it myself or have my boyfriend kill it in front of me..ha…but we always say thank you and appreciate the food that we have caught. There is no way that I would jump up on to a cow and be successful….or suck the milk right out of the udder….I would like to see Sally Fallon take a shot at sucking the raw milk right from the cow udder and see how how she feels about that. And of course it’s healthier than Sally taking another womans breast milk because the cow doesn’t question what to eat to stay healthy….the cow just eats what his instincts tell him to eat…..grass.
Wow, I listened to Sally Fallon’s whole diatribe and I just have to say that she sounds like a crazy person. Like a crazy, irrational, misinformed, dogmatic person. I don’t even see the point to responding to any of the things she said because they were all insane. If she had gone on to say that we should all eat a bit of the moon every night because it is made of nutrient-dense green cheese, I wouldn’t have been surprised.
Also, I took a look at her recent pictures and I think if she’s so healthy, Kevin should have asked her if she can run a mile. LOL. I’d like to see her in a head-to-head competition with Dr. Cousens. How many pushups did he say he could do.. like 400? How many do you think Sally on her high-meat and dairy diet can do?
again with the emotions, how about some facts?
more then a Sally on a vegan diet.
also you comparison is flawed because men have stronger upper bodies.
We’ll let her do the modified kind…
i would also LOVE to see a video of him doing 400 push ups non-stop.
I can do 100. Never could do that before going vegan…Also run 30+km a week and am training for a marathon…
Fred you were right on ! Humans are definately herbivores and should be eating plant foods and fruit. I’ve been following that diet and I feel fantastic! We are set up like herbivores Digestive and teeth ect… and early man would gather small plants and herbs and berries before killing animals. If you look at raw just killed flesh it doesn’t look good or like food. It does to a meat eater. But fruit and berries and greens look like food and also taste great and are easy to digest.
THanks, Nick
A hunk of raw meat doesn’t look good to me, but do green, hard, unripe berries and fruits look good to you?
No, because both foods are not ready to be eaten. You have to cook the meat first
Mrs. Fallons response that vegetarians are sometimes angry when talking about their choice is because they are unhealthy, irrational and upset because they know they have made a mistake and don’t want to admit it made no sense and was insulting. What is the reason that meat eaters get angry, because they have good reason? But vegetarians are just unstable due to not eating meat? That is just not sound thinking on her part and makes me question what else she says. I am surprised she did not realize what an insult to her host that was. I am impressed with Kevin’s restraint. Great week, I didn’t miss a show. I feel like I got a good introduction to the who’s who of nutritional educators and a good bases to create a nutritional diet for myself and my family. Thank you very much for all your hard work and the gift you have given me and your listeners!
It’s true, she could have done a better job presenting her view. About the instability, I think she was particularly referring to her encounters with vegans/vegetarians, during which she claims they were screaming in her face. Obviously, these were emotionally unstable extremists. But I feel uneasy about characterizing the whole lot as emotionally unstable. There could be some science behind her remarks, which she failed to mention (or that I just don’t remember…).
I’ve heard this mistake a few times: that herbivores need two stomachs to digest plant food. A horse’s natural diet is grass….A horse has one stomach.
I was glad to hear the perspective offered by Will Tuttle, that our “food” is actually far more then simply the food we put in our mouths. His book ” The World Peace Diet” explains more fully the concepts he touched upon, and is well worth reading, or listening to as an audio book. As far as Sally Fallon…it was embarrassing to listen to her outdated, biased generalizations and comments about vegetarians and vegans. The comment near the end, that vegetarians are emotional because their brains are not supported was absolutely asinine. Thank goodness the other speakers provided interesting viewpoints without resorting to such irrational comments.